Twitter-TF Tenney at Jentezn Franklin's 2morrow!

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

If I preached...

Mt 28:19 GO

- Cool story from the NY Times about the beginning of Western Civ. Ties together the cry to "GO"

- The etymology of "Go" in Mt 28:19 and in Gen 12, God's words to Abram

- The purpose of a Commission, Defining a Commission

- Tying together of biblical characters that were called to "GO"

- Acts 1-2, the marching orders of the church

- Altar appeal, using specific story from Readers Digest

(not included here are many sub-points, specific quotable sayings, etc)

Now... if you preached that outline as your own, exactly as it is here, is that plagiarism? What about if you printed it and sold it?

Word of Flame usually produces doctrine, and ideas that are commonly held and known. But, if you are going to read the tract word-for-word, it's certainly the right thing to let people know you are using "word of flame." This is ethics, bro.

If I preached the above sermon, and you got inspired and wanted to share the subject of "GO" with your fellowship, and did so in your own way, or did so in the above way and cited bro so-and-so somewhere in it, then there are certainly no problems.

I wouldn't use it. Why you ask because the stories aren't mine. I didn't read the NY Times article so I wouldn't use it. Had I read it before or something then I would use it.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I wouldn't use it. Why you ask because the stories aren't mine. I didn't read the NY Times article so I wouldn't use it. Had I read it before or something then I would use it.

So what specifically disqualifies it from you using it? The fact that you didn't read the article (though the speaker basically read the article to you and it's fair game as its a NYT article)? None of the stories were really "personal," meaning told from the first person. They were stories the speaker shared of things that were public record.

So why wouldn't you use it?

Why not preach the outline?

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Can you flesh out why it's not important?

Can you think with me, and maybe posit some ideas about why it would be important?

It is not important because it is not important to me. Having said that if someone used something I came up with and quoted me it would be cool but not needed.

Keep in mind I said previously that I have quoted people even when thinking it was not needed. I did that for no reason other than I just did it. Didn't have a inner personal battle as to whether it was right or wrong.


Thinking with you here; I think that if you were quoting a friend that would be a good respectful thing to do, but I wouldn't care if a friend didn't quote me if they used something I had came up with.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

So what specifically disqualifies it from you using it? The fact that you didn't read the article (though the speaker basically read the article to you and it's fair game as its a NYT article)? None of the stories were really "personal," meaning told from the first person. They were stories the speaker shared of things that were public record.

So why wouldn't you use it?

Why not preach the outline?

Jeffrey, are you stuck?

I have a son who has a "condition", you might say, that gets him "stuck." Once he gets his heart set on something....it might be a toy, a certain food, money, to fix something, whatever...we've learned to just go ahead and get it over with because he just can't move on until it's resolved. We always joke that he's "stuck."

So Jeffrey, I think you're "Stuck" on this plagiarism thing!

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

So what specifically disqualifies it from you using it? The fact that you didn't read the article (though the speaker basically read the article to you and it's fair game as its a NYT article)? None of the stories were really "personal," meaning told from the first person. They were stories the speaker shared of things that were public record.

So why wouldn't you use it?

Why not preach the outline?

I wouldn't preach it because I would add touches of ME to it. Plus that outline is set up weird for me. But if I were going to use the story I would need to read it myself and see if I got the same from it. Mostlikely I would still not use it. Nothing disqualifies me from using it.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Jeffrey, are you stuck?

I have a son who has a "condition", you might say, that gets him "stuck." Once he gets his heart set on something....it might be a toy, a certain food, money, to fix something, whatever...we've learned to just go ahead and get it over with because he just can't move on until it's resolved. We always joke that he's "stuck."

So Jeffrey, I think you're "Stuck" on this plagiarism thing!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Jeffrey, are you stuck?

I have a son who has a "condition", you might say, that gets him "stuck." Once he gets his heart set on something....it might be a toy, a certain food, money, to fix something, whatever...we've learned to just go ahead and get it over with because he just can't move on until it's resolved. We always joke that he's "stuck."

So Jeffrey, I think you're "Stuck" on this plagiarism thing!

Probably.

Easier to be unstuck when you are intelligently engaged, even challenged.
I think it's an issue. It's dishonest and disgusting. I'm as stuck on this as most of you are on your 24-7 soap boxes of every other topic of flavor on AFF Are you a plagiarizer too???

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I wouldn't preach it because I would add touches of ME to it. Plus that outline is set up weird for me. But if I were going to use the story I would need to read it myself and see if I got the same from it. Mostlikely I would still not use it. Nothing disqualifies me from using it.

Thanks for the critique of an outline I threw together in 30 seconds

You wouldn't use it because:

1) touched of you in it? (not sure what you meant it NEEDS touches of you? Just touches? Well use it and just "touch it up" with you)

2) You need to read the story to see if you got the same (Hello! The speaker read you the story already)

3) So again, why wouldn't you use it? I'm asking for your honest answers here, I was intending on going somewhere. You are all greased up though. Slippery fellow you.

But you add that nothing disqualifies you from using the outline as it is. Another deviation since you said "I can't use it because the stories aren't mine."

I'm trying to get you to articulate your own ethics on the matter, or how you privately interpret plagiarism. Would you let the owner of the outline know you are going to reproduce it in spoken form (even if you keep the audience in the dark and lead them on that it's all you)?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Thanks for posting that link, Jeffrey. Here's a quote from the blog:

"If Jentezen Franklin disdains us (and his past) so much, then why has he gained a reputation for plagiarizing messages from notable apostolic ministers like Mike Williams, Wayne Huntley, Jerry Jones, T.F. Tenney, J.H. Osborne, and Jeff Arnold, among others? He recently preached Bro. Williams’ message from Because of the Times 2010 nearly verbatim at Ed Young’s C3 conference.

Franklin has re-preached messages first delivered by the aforementioned ministers (which is usually considered acceptable), but also stolen personal stories from messages, interjecting himself into others’ experiences without clarifying the difference (not acceptable)."

Again, I would like to hear the messages. Verifiable proof? Has he posted the messages to compare? Or that he took on their persona in illustrations?

[Jeffrey]

Stetzer's blog is closer to my heart on the matter:

Some preachers have been fired for passing off the sermons of others as their own work. Of course, some say that using sermon resources that are intended and even sold to be used for that purpose is not plagiarism (in other words, Rick Warren gives you permission to use his sermon without crediting him, etc.).

Steve Sjogren, a great brother with a heart for pastors, wrote an article about preaching and advocated using the sermons of others. Lots of folks got ticked about it, including some friends of mine. James Merritt stepped into a similar bru-ha-ha at my recent denominational meeting and got whacked around a bit.

....


But, it was Adrian Rogers, former pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, TN, used to say, "If my bullet fits your gun, go ahead and shoot it." (Rick Warren is widely quoted with saying the same, but it has more punch to see Jerry Vines say it about Adrian Rogers.)

Let me say up front that I am not a preaching expert, but I have my views. And they have evolved over time. I used to preach other people's messages, particularly in the busiest seasons of church planting, and I don't think that was sinful, dishonest, or plagiarism. Yet, later, I decided that this practice was not spiritually healthy for me or for my church. It amounts to a kind of lip-syncing that not only robs a church of a truly prophetic voice, but also a pastor of his own necessary development. In the end I found that my church and I both grew more deeply when we wrested through the word of God in our

A few years ago I took a ride in Rick Warren's SUV. He got in his side and then I climbed into the passengers seat -- "climbed" literally because all of his books were piled up on the floor at my feet. He was preparing to preach on sex and marriage and the floor was a mixture of commentaries, books, and articles. I was impressed with his preparation and still today want to see where his preparation leads him, but I have also found that there is value in taking that journey of preparation myself.

After defining plagiarism he adds:

Notice especially that last sentence. Much of what makes something plagiarism is the intention behind the act. In one of the many books on preaching in my library (the "Simple Sermon" series of over thirty volumes), W. Herschel Ford introduces his own sermons, saying,

The messages in this book are sermons that I preached over the many years that I was in the pastorate. I have compiled them from the notes I made before they were preached.
I do not know where I found the material contained in these sermons. I may have borrowed it, as a whole or in part, from other preachers. I simply do not remember. But if this is the case, I apologize right now and hope I may receive forgiveness, and that our combined efforts will win souls and glorify God.

Preachers and Christian workers everywhere are to feel free to use these sermons as their own. (from the foreword, W. Herschel Ford, Simple Sermons on Heaven Hell, and Judgment, Zondervan, 1969), italics added.

Heck the story made the NY Times in 2002: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/13/us...pagewanted=all

While on a legal level, I disagree with how Stetzer defines Plagariasm, I think his bottom-line heart issue point is solid, and even his caveat about intention. People who ignore the need to cite sources in writing, give credit in speeches, should search their heart and ask the real "why." Are they fearing others? Are they wanting to be seen a certain way? Just sayin...