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  #241  
Old 03-25-2007, 11:23 PM
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ManOfWord ManOfWord is offline
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Justification takes place the moment a person sincerely and seriously gives their life to Jesus Christ. I believe they are as saved as they can be at this point. This person should move right to water baptism right away. No need to wait. If they don't want baptized, I don't think they have been justified. The baptism of the HG is for EVERYONE!
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  #242  
Old 03-26-2007, 10:07 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Originally Posted by ManOfWord View Post
Justification takes place the moment a person sincerely and seriously gives their life to Jesus Christ. I believe they are as saved as they can be at this point. This person should move right to water baptism right away. No need to wait. If they don't want baptized, I don't think they have been justified. The baptism of the HG is for EVERYONE!
Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.
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  #243  
Old 03-26-2007, 10:19 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.
Remission and forgiveness are synonyms Elder, in the NT. There's no way you can get around that Elder.
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  #244  
Old 03-26-2007, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.
Could we see your scriptural references to justification being procured only at Baptism?

I gotta run off to work for a bit. I'll be back , so take your time.
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  #245  
Old 03-26-2007, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord View Post
Justification takes place the moment a person sincerely and seriously gives their life to Jesus Christ. I believe they are as saved as they can be at this point. This person should move right to water baptism right away. No need to wait. If they don't want baptized, I don't think they have been justified. The baptism of the HG is for EVERYONE!
MOW,
can you consider how your position on this alters the purposes of water baptism and sends them into the category of "an outward sign of inward change".

MOW,
as I read you posted view, I am hearing, "water baptism has no role in our justification" except to indicate that justification has already happened.


Why would God invite us to participate in things that are only for demonstration purposes AND the audience is man-to-man?

The witness of the deliverance at the Red Sea was a vivid type and shadow of "a separation process at work". Separation from the bondage of sin is fully pre-requiste for receiving the righteousness of our savior's substitutionary atonement.

In my understanding of the scriptural witness, there is no mistaking Israel passing through the sea and our deliverance through the waters of baptism.
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  #246  
Old 03-26-2007, 10:33 AM
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Let us examine this term REMISSION OF SINS

re-mish'-un (aphesis, paresis): The first term is the most commonly used and is translated synonymously with forgiveness throughout the NT. The two Greek words, of which the latter occurs only in Rom 3:25, were translated by the same English word in the King James Version. In the Revised Version (British and American), paresis is translation "passing over."

It is contrasted with the other term as pretermission with remission. Remission is exemption from the consequences of an offense, forgiveness; pretermission is the suspension of the penalty (Philippi, Ellicott, Trench (Synonyms, XXXIII), Weiss; compare Acts 17:30).

Cremer (Lexicon of N T Gr) regards the meaning of the two words as identical, except that the one refers to the Old Testament and the other to the New Testament. Sins are remitted when the offender is treated as though the offense had never been committed. Remission is restricted to the penalty, while forgiveness refers more particularly to the person, although it may be used also of the sin itself. Remission also is used of offenses against God's law; forgiveness, against either divine or human law.
See ABSOLUTION; FORGIVENESS.
H. E. Jacobs

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Why are some trying to continue to insist that the New Covenant demands two separate actions ... with forgiveness coming first and remission occurring subsequently ...

The only reason PAJCers will not let go of this theory is because it would take out a brick in their brick-wall theology ...

repentance would no longer be just for forgiveness sins and baptism would no longer be necessary for remission.

However ... the following has not been addressed by those sticking to their PAJC guns:

There is no argument that forgiveness and remission were distinct conceptually under the old covenant ... no argument from me ... or TB for that matter ....

but even my brother Epley has admitted that in the New Covenant they are interwoven .... and that both terms are synonymous in the NT.

The Bible itself is its own best commentary. Hebrews 9:15 reaffirms the truth that the death of Christ was the legal basis for God having forgiven the sins of the Old Testament saints - "And for this cause he (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

God very definitely FORGAVE sins many times in the Old Testament, and He certainly PUNISHED His people for their sins; but the legal basis for His having forgiven,,or remitted the sins of His people in the Old Testament times was the future and predicted death of Christ on the cross of Calvary; He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). The death of Christ satisfies the legal requirements of His having remitted and forgiven the sins of the O.T. saints. The blood of Christ declares the righteousness of God in forgiving sins, both in Old Testament times and now in the New.

So why then does the New Covenant ... as taught in the NT .. used aphesis most commonly, including in Acts 2:38, to describe forgiveness/remission???

because .... aphesis/forgiveness/remission is found in the Lamb of God ... the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ... along with our propitiation ... expiation ... atonement... redemption... reconciliation ... and justification. ... [you name it ... He did it]


Gentleman, this attempt to separate forgiveness and remission in the new covenant is to fit it into a faulty theology.

Hebrews holds many keys to understanding the work of Lamb of God who has become our High priest. Read it and realize what He did.
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Hebrews 9

The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
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  #247  
Old 03-26-2007, 12:26 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Daniel,

Is justification the same as remission?

Why is remission linked with water baptism?
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  #248  
Old 03-26-2007, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Daniel,

Is justification the same as remission?

Why is remission linked with water baptism?
Justification and forgiveness/remission conceptually are different .... Yet if we believe God has forgiven/remitted our sins with true repentance ... would he not also have justified us, or "declared us righteous" also, simultaneously.

Remission [aphesis]is used synonymously in the NT with forgiveness [aphesis] ... except for one example in the book of Romans ... The English KJV usage of both words has thrown many off ... from it's original intent and distorting sound doctrine.

... which is to say that other translations use forgiveness and remission using the same word ... i.e. Spanish Reina Valera ... simply uses one word "perdon" for both ... making no semantical distinction.
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  #249  
Old 03-26-2007, 01:20 PM
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Is there no difference between Peters call to the sinners to repent (aphesis) and be baptized; and Gods act of remission (aphesis)?
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  #250  
Old 03-26-2007, 01:31 PM
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Is there no difference between Peters call to the sinners to repent (aphesis) and be baptized; and Gods act of remission (aphesis)?
repentance, or repent is not translated as aphesis, Ferd.
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