We were at a festival and saw some Amish girls come walking by with their head coverings around their waste and smoking cigarettes. They were in their teens. Apparently at the age of sixteen they are allowed to go out and do what they want to experience life and then decide if they want to stay or not.
Strangely enough, 97% of them return and never leave their people. That's part of their normal way of life. Rumspringa is what it's called, and it's a tradition of rights, so to speak. During this time, they are allowed to do whatever they please, then make a decision. Makes me wonder if the same would be true of Pentecostals...but I'm not wanting to find that out.
Those girls weren't rebelling. There is no need to rebel when one is given permission.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Just wanted to address this and say this is NOT the reason why the UPC is considered a cult. In fact, it's not even among all the reasons why the UPC is considered such.
I know people who are no longer part of the UPC because they believe they are a cult, but still themselves believe in the baptism in Jesus name.
Just thought I'd clarify.
Actually that is the main reason. There are many more. If you look it up the different reasons cults are considered cults, one of them is that they are teaching another Jesus other than the orthodox view. Therefore any oneness movement would be considered a cult because we believe in baptism in one, and not in the trinity. This is according to what I learned in my class on cults in college.
I am in a time crunch and will be glad to respond to the various posts as soon as I can. In the meantime I read some of the most incredible stuff today.
See Caregivers blast Texas' treatment of polygamous sect's women, children
By Julia Lyon
The Salt Lake Tribune
Also note the box where you can pull up and read the individual letters from the mental health workers who had a ringside seat on this Texas Travesty.
I don't believe that a sixteen year old girl who marries willingly according to the dictates of her faith practiced for more than 100 years is anywhere close to the abuse these mothers and children have been put through.
Sis. Newman, believe it or not, I agree with you on this somewhat.
I wanted to post something the other day to let you know my thoughts on all this. I've enjoyed this dialog with you, but up to now it seems I have been more arguing the point just to argue the point.
It IS illegal for these men to 'spiritually' marry a 16-year old girl if they already have a legal wife. It seems like there are a couple things they could do to get around that. Either legally marry and divorce one wife at a time, or wait until the girl reaches the age of consent (17). They should have kept everything above board and legal. It shouldn't be that hard to do.
I've said this a couple times already...for me it's not about polygamy. I think adults should be able to live together in their community however they choose, and sleep with whomever they choose. After all, the rest of the world finds shacking up 'socially acceptable'...seems no different to me.
What I have a problem with is the 13, 14, and 15-year olds that are victims of child sexual abuse IF, in fact, it turns out there IS evidence of this. There's just no way around that for me. I'm anxiously awaiting to hear the facts and proof. While I have a pretty big problem with the whole cult thing, I would not condemn them if they find no evidence of these young children being abused.
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Actually that is the main reason. There are many more. If you look it up the different reasons cults are considered cults, one of them is that they are teaching another Jesus other than the orthodox view. Therefore any oneness movement would be considered a cult because we believe in baptism in one, and not in the trinity. This is according to what I learned in my class on cults in college.
The reason I said what I did is because it really has nothing to do with the teaching, especially since all churches and faiths, even the Catholics, also once believed in Jesus Name baptism. Muslims believe in one God and not a trinity, but they aren't considered a cult.
In addition, there are religions that don't believe in God at all, but they aren't considered cults. The belief system of a church or organization isn't what makes them a cult, but rather, their methods of teaching those beliefs are.
I think your instructor's information was a little faulty.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Sis. Newman, believe it or not, I agree with you on this somewhat.
I wanted to post something the other day to let you know my thoughts on all this. I've enjoyed this dialog with you, but up to now it seems I have been more arguing the point just to argue the point.
It IS illegal for these men to 'spiritually' marry a 16-year old girl if they already have a legal wife. It seems like there are a couple things they could do to get around that. Either legally marry and divorce one wife at a time, or wait until the girl reaches the age of consent (17). They should have kept everything above board and legal. It shouldn't be that hard to do.
I've said this a couple times already...for me it's not about polygamy. I think adults should be able to live together in their community however they choose, and sleep with whomever they choose. After all, the rest of the world finds shacking up 'socially acceptable'...seems no different to me.
What I have a problem with is the 13, 14, and 15-year olds that are victims of child sexual abuse IF, in fact, it turns out there IS evidence of this. There's just no way around that for me. I'm anxiously awaiting to hear the facts and proof. While I have a pretty big problem with the whole cult thing, I would not condemn them if they find no evidence of these young children being abused.
Pretty strange that it's been a while now and we haven't heard of the proof yet, have we? In fact, they've been letting women go because they first took them into custody believing they were underage when they aren't.
I think the state of Texas WANTS to find something so bad they are willing to go to any lengths to get it. Problem is, they aren't finding what they are looking for so far.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
The reason I said what I did is because it really has nothing to do with the teaching, especially since all churches and faiths, even the Catholics, also once believed in Jesus Name baptism. Muslims believe in one God and not a trinity, but they aren't considered a cult.
In addition, there are religions that don't believe in God at all, but they aren't considered cults. The belief system of a church or organization isn't what makes them a cult, but rather, their methods of teaching those beliefs are.
I think your instructor's information was a little faulty.
All religions have their gods and anything that teaches a different god with the same name is considered a cult. Krishna is a god to the Indian people Hari Krishna is considered a cult.
Cult typically refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
I only took this part of the definition, because it best explains the message I am trying to get across.
At one time we were not that far from the mainstream churches, but baptism in Jesus name definitely wasn't mainstream years ago. I took this example to stay away from offending people with using standards and so forth.
Pretty strange that it's been a while now and we haven't heard of the proof yet, have we? In fact, they've been letting women go because they first took them into custody believing they were underage when they aren't.
I think the state of Texas WANTS to find something so bad they are willing to go to any lengths to get it. Problem is, they aren't finding what they are looking for so far.
It's highly doubtful that they would release all information/evidence if they are going to be convicting anyone of a crime. We will have to wait and see.
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Apparently, at least one family has won the right to stay with their child, who is turning one in the next few days. I saw it on a news program today, but haven't looked for it on Yahoo yet. If I find the story I will post the link to it.
Strangely enough, 97% of them return and never leave their people. That's part of their normal way of life. Rumspringa is what it's called, and it's a tradition of rights, so to speak. During this time, they are allowed to do whatever they please, then make a decision. Makes me wonder if the same would be true of Pentecostals...but I'm not wanting to find that out.
Those girls weren't rebelling. There is no need to rebel when one is given permission.
Sorry, but again I think this is misinformation.
They were likely rebelling... The girls smoking would not be tolerated in daily life at an Amish home. I see no evidence of "permission" granted in rumspringa. It is no different than non-Amish families giving an 16-18 yr old the liberty to get his own style haircut or choosing his own music. It is an acknowledgement that they are becoming adults and are making some of their own choices. If I had a seventeen yr old that was into headbanging, hard rock, it would not mean I gave permission to it.
Unless these Amish girls are church members the church has no control over them. The parents could boot them out (and they often do, depending on the case) but that may lesson the chances they will ultimately choose to join the church.
Now the guys may get away with smoking... but that is a different subject.
Also, most Amish view the men smoking as a OP would view caffine addiction, not good - but also not forbidden.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
After watching an interview Oprah had with the young woman that testified in the trial of Warren Jeffs in which he was convicted. She was FORCED to marry her 1st cousin after begging him and another leader not to make her do it. She was 14. Their honeymoon was with a group of other couples.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
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