Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

No. LOL

But in all honesty...I believe in the Bible. I believe that the Bible teaches in the book of Revelation that there will be a global government and that there will be governmental powers that will wage war against the Church. I don't believe this "beast" will form overnight. The mystery of iniquity has been at work behind the scenes since the time of the Apostles and even in their days there were many antichrists. So I believe there is a conspiracy, the Bible implies that much. Now....those involved may be aware that they are preparing the way for their dark messiah. But most likely everyone involved in this conspiracy are simply spiritually blinded to the fact that they are being used by spiritual forces as pawns to prepare the way for the man of sin. Most likely those involved feel like they are patriotic men and women who have society's best interests in mind...but their very actions are led of the god of this world and they are accomplices in the greatest Satanic coup that this world will ever see. Also, I fear that their agenda is clouded by a deeply "moral" and "righteous" appearance, so that if it be possible...they would deceive the very elect.

Hope that clarifies. God bless.

P.S.
Why imply that I'm a conspiracy nut and not consider any validity of my concerns? Don't shoot at me...let's dialogue about the issues brought up.

I could agree that it might be an ex-Mormon, but I want to believe the authorities practice better ethics than to do something like that.

[ChristopherHall]

I know I've got the rep of leaning left on the environment and health care...but this sort of thing really provokes the conservative in me. I don't like the government doing this kind of thing. Who defines abuse? Certainly the law was broken if girls younger than 17 were given over to be wives... Those who were a part of breaking these laws should face the law...but they're criminalizing an entire community and taking all their children because their beliefs (as weird and crazy as they are) have been deemed unacceptable. That has very serious implications.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I know I've got the rep of leaning left on the environment and health care...but this sort of thing really provokes the conservative in me. I don't like the government doing this kind of thing. Who defines abuse? Certainly the law was broken if girls younger than 17 were given over to be wives... Those who were a part of breaking these laws should face the law...but they're criminalizing an entire community because their beliefs (as weird and crazy as they are) have been deemed unacceptable. That has very serious implications.

Okay, let's put it in your ballpark.

Please excuse the example: Say your 12 year old sister is raped by your father and she calls the authorities. Do you want the authorities to get involved or just sit back and say, well....that's her father - - we better not get involved? The man broke the law - more than likely your sister would be taken from the home to protect her.

[ChristopherHall]

I wouldn't be surprised of the original complaint originated from the authorities themselves to justify this action. Until they produce evidence that it was legitimate it should be called into question. This doesn't justify any of the specific criminal activity that took place. But as a religious people who have beliefs that are often viewed as "cult-like" by society at large, we Apostolics should be concerned.

Did anyone hear the interview on Larry King Life where a woman claimed they had baby grave yards and implied that some of the deaths among the community may not have been accidental but rather murders? That was weird to me. It seems there's a lot of emotion and demonization going on. Yes, some under age girls were placed in arranged marriages. That's an issue that should be addressed....but to raid and incriminate an entire community and take all their children over it? I'm not convinced that's justified.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Probably none of you good Apostolic Friends really know what goes on in these compounds but as usual it gives you all something to gossip about, in fact a whole 33 pages.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Probably none of you good Apostolic Friends really know what goes on in these compounds but as usual it gives you all something to gossip about, in fact a whole 33 pages.

Gossip?

It's in the news daily......it's current events....not gossip.

[DanielR]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Probably none of you good Apostolic Friends really know what goes on in these compounds but as usual it gives you all something to gossip about, in fact a whole 33 pages.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Okay, let's put it in your ballpark.

Please excuse the example: Say your 12 year old sister is raped by your father and calls the authorities. Do you want the authorities to get involved or just sit back and say, well....that's her father - - we better not get involved? The man broke the law - more than likely your sister would be taken from the home to protect her.

Oh, I hear ya sis and I certainly would want actions taken.

But lets say a girl was born in this community and raised with their values and beliefs her entire life. She's been taught that its an honor and a step to womanhood to be married and have children. Their customs are deeply rooted in their religious teachings (errant of course) and they have a tendency to be counter cultural and resistant government authorities. They truly believe that their leader is a persecuted profit. They love their children and the children love their parents. When a girl is 13 she is often reminded that she might "become a woman" next year. In her culture that means higher social status within the community. She turns 14 and her parents arrange her marriage....is she excited about this or does she feel trapped? Maybe it depends on the girl and who the man is. But when she's married she receives higher social status and respect she wouldn't have received if she waited. If she doesn't marry by the time she's 25 she's regarded as rejected and viewed like something is wrong with her. She's now 17 and suddenly armed men and vehicles with flashing lights show up and round her up separating her from her community, her husband, and her parents. All of this police action may be far more traumatic to her than the life customs she's known all her life.

Basically it seems these folks have resurrected OT culture in their community. Certainly TX has the legal authority to act where the law was broken...but let's remember...these are arranged marriages. The talking heads on television and radio are saying these girls are "raped". But what they are calling "rape" are in fact "arranged marriages". The logic is that since these girls didn't choose their partners and were under age (the age being a valid legal issue) their expected submission to marital consummation is therefore "rape". But for all we know no one was tied down, beaten, or brutalized. Who's to say some of these girls didn't rejoice in that they were being married? Not that it's right, it's still illegal...but the term "rape" to me denotes something far more brutal than an arranged marriage. If an arranged marriage is equal to rape....most of God's anointed in the OT are rapists.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Okay, let's put it in your ballpark.

Please excuse the example: Say your 12 year old sister is raped by your father and she calls the authorities. Do you want the authorities to get involved or just sit back and say, well....that's her father - - we better not get involved? The man broke the law - more than likely your sister would be taken from the home to protect her.

If that did indeed happen & all of the children were abused.
In Canada, someone can accuse & the child authorities will step in and -boom
the kids are taken!

The burden of proof is on the parent rather than on the accuser.
A sad and very scary position to be in.

Listening to reports & comments we should all just round up these parents and cast them into jail as they are all guilty!!

Where is the innocent until proven guilty???

Oh right, that was in the old US when it was a Republic.

This has very serious implications for us all.

I agree with Chris if they are guilty---string em up by the yardarm!

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Probably none of you good Apostolic Friends really know what goes on in these compounds but as usual it gives you all something to gossip about, in fact a whole 33 pages.

I imagine it's like most families. They wake up in the morning and have breakfast. They then meet out in the field to get their work done for the day. The kids spend their days in home school classes and learn their religious teachings along with essential reading, writing, history, and math skills. They play during their recess times. Some look forward to being married others don't, but all believe and understand that their marriage will be arranged. Some might even have an indication as to who their parents will have them marry. Most likely the wives work together performing chores and domestic duties. They are most likely taught to respect each other and to respect their husband's wishes and choices. Apparently there is quite a bit of excessive control here in my opinion, sometimes their religious leaders separate families and excommunicate from the community (cultic but not criminal as far as I'm aware). Most girls are in arranged marriages and certainly some of them aren't too pleased. Sadly some are married far younger than law would allow. This is a crime without a doubt according to Texas law. I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to say an arranged marriage is rape.

*Please note; where I used the term marriage, whenever polygamous unions are involved the term "spiritual marriage" should be applied, and we know that these marriages are not legally binding according to law. I'm just too lazy to edit.