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View Poll Results: Did Jesus Come In 70ad?
Did the coming of Jesus including the resurrection of the dead occur in 70ad? 0 0%
The coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead is still future. 6 100.00%
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  #181  
Old 11-22-2018, 03:12 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

The Letter of Elijah
T. Whitelaw
2 Chronicles 21:12-15
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus said the LORD God of David your father…

I. THE AUTHOR OF THE WRITING. Various suggestions.

1. Elisha, who entered on the duties of his calling before the death of Jehoshaphat (2 Kings 3:11), and who accordingly would be the most likely party from whom should proceed such a communication as Jehoram received. In this case the name of Elijah must have been substituted in the text for that of Elisha (Kennicott, Jamieson).

2. A later historian, "who describes the relation of Elijah to Joram in few words, and according to his conception of it as a whole" (Bertheau); but "this judgment rests on dogmatic grounds, and flows from a principle which refuses to recognize any supernatural prediction in the prophetic utterances" (Keil).

3. Elijah, the author named in the text. Besides being in the text, the word occurs in all existing Hebrew manuscripts and in all the Oriental versions.

II. THE DATE OF THE WRITING. Again different explanations.

1. After Elijah's translation. The notions that either Elijah sent the letter from heaven by an angel (Grotius), or spoke it from the clouds (Menken), may be discarded as conjectures wanting in support from any intelligible analogies (Keil).

2. Before Elijah's translation. Here two views emerge.

(1) After Jehoram had ascended the throne (Keil, Rawlinson). This assumes that Elijah was alive at the commencement of Jehoram's reign (2 Kings 1:17), and may have learnt of the assassination of Jehoshaphat's sons - the knowledge of which crime may have moved him to send its perpetrator the divinely given announcement of his death this letter contains. The fact that Elisha accompanied Jehoshaphat to the Moabitish war (2 Kings 3:11) does not prove that Elijah had then been translated, since Elijah was alive in the second year of the conjoint reign of Jehoram and Jehoshaphat his father (2 Kings 1:17; 2 Kings 3:1).

(2) Before Jehoram had ascended the throne (Buddaeus, Clarke). Nothing impossible in the suggestion that Elijah had the wickedness of Jehoram revealed to him before it occurred, as previously he had been informed of the elevation of Jehu to the throne of Israel, and of the accession of Hazael to that of Syria, before these events happened (1 Kings 19:16, 17). Either explanation is admissible, though the latter is probably more correct.

III. THE CONTENTS OF THE WRITING.

1. A twofold accusation.

(1) A charge of aggravated idolatry. Not only had Jehoram himself forsaken the way of Jehoshaphat and of Asa, i.e. the worship of Jehovah, and turned aside into the way of the kings of Israel, i.e. worship of Baal and other idols, but he had corrupted the whole house of Judah, and caused them to commit spiritual whoredom, like the house of Ahab.

(2) An indictment of infamous murder. He had slain all his brethren, the children of his father's house, who were better than himself.

2. A twofold retribution.

(1) A great stroke upon his people, upon his house (his wives and children), upon his property (his goods or substance). As prosperity was a usual concomitant of piety, so adversity was wont, under Jehovah's government of Israel, to dog the heels of impiety.

(2) A greater stroke upon himself, in the shape of a slow, but sure, loathsome and mortal disease which should seize upon his bowels. That it should continue for two years before terminating fatally (Bertheau) can hardly be made out from the expressions "day by day," or "days upon days." The prophet could speak with confidence, since diseases are God's messengers who come and go at his command (Exodus 15:26; Deuteronomy 28:60; Psalm 103:3).

IV. THE FULFILMENT OF THE WRITING.

1. The invasion of Jehoram's kingdom. (Ver. 16.)

(1) The prime mover was Jehovah, as Elijah's letter predicted. "The Lord stirred up the spirit of the Philistines," as formerly, on two several occasions, he had stirred up an adversary to Solomon (1 Kings 11:14, 23), and afterwards stirred up Pul (Tiglath-Pileser) King of Assyria, against Pekah King of Israel (2 Kings 15:29; 1 Chronicles 5:26). God is said to do what, for the accomplishment of his own wise and sovereign purposes, he permits to be done, and hence is represented as working all things according to the counsel of his will (Job 9:12; Psalm 66:7; Psalm 115:3; Daniel 4:35; Ephesians 1:11).

(2) The acting instruments were the Philistines, an ancient enemy of Israel (Judges 10:7; 1 Samuel 4:1) on the west; and the Arabians near the Ethiopians, i.e. the middle Arabians, exactly south of Palestine (Schurer). This juxtaposition of the Philistines and Arabians occurs in two more places in this book (2 Chronicles 17:11; 2 Chronicles 26:7).

(3) The extent is indicated by the details given. The savage hordes broke into Judah. That they captured the capital seems a natural inference from the plunder they carried off (Bertheau), though, had Jerusalem been sacked, "the treasures of the palace as well as of the temple would have been mentioned" (Keil). In any case, they carried off "all the substance found in the king's house," which may signify all the property of the palace (Bertheau), or all the king's property found in the country, in the cities, villages, and castles of Judah (Keil). Along with this, they made prisoners of the king's wives and. sons, except Jehoahaz, or Ahaziah. What they did with the former is not recorded; the latter they slew (2 Chronicles 22:1).

2. The affliction of Jehoram's body. Whatever the malady, a violent dysentery, or some disease of the intestines, it was

(1) sudden - "Jehovah struck him," pointing to a mysterious and inexplicable infliction difficult to trace to any immediate physical cause, and therefore ordinarily ascribed to a supernatural origin (2 Chronicles 26:20; Acts 12:23);

(2) painful - the diseases were sore;

(3) protracted - his sickness continued two years;

(4) loathsome - his bowels fell out towards the end of that period;

(5) mortal - he succumbed beneath his ailment, and "died." Learn:

1. God's knowledge of the histories, characters, and actions of men (Proverbs 15:3).

2. God's ability to foresee and reveal to men the nature and tendency of their or others' acts (Genesis 18:17; Genesis 41:28; 1 Samuel 9:15).

3. God's determination to be avenged of them that do wickedly without respect of persons (Psalm 34:16; Psalm 37:38).

4. God's resources for executing his purposes of judgment or mercy. - W.




Parallel Verses
KJV: And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
WEB: A letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, "Thus says Yahweh, the God of David your father, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

The bolded in red is what I always believed.

Saying Elijah didn't go to heaven, isn't a problem, taken up doesn't mean taken into the outer atmosphere. As 1st Thessalonians 4 shows us in the Greek they are brought into the surrounding air into the cloud. Which the Judeans (diaspora, and locals) would of clearly understood as being ushered into God's presence.

But saying that Elijah wasn't deceased is another story. Passing of mantels is another thing which must be taken into consideration. this is also important with the issues of elders, teachers and pastors role in the life of their people.

For instance, these Bible discussions we have here don't take the place of one's church family or pastor, elders, and mentors. No matter what you read here everything gets filtered through your pastor. I believe it was Apostolic1ness in Mike's Jehovah Witness thread "Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos" brings up that his pastor is pre trib, and that the pastor is more focused on getting his people living right (which would help in going up in a rapture, correct?) Esaias also posted on the same page. That it was up to the pastor, how and when he would teach on eschatology. Only the pastor knows what is going on with his own people and what they need to be taught. Yet, MTD continue to tell the saint that the pastor was contrary to Paul's admonitions concerning the coming of the Lord. Apostolic1ness assured MTD That the Pastor wants to believe pre trib, however his time preaching is spent on more important things. But to some they can sit in a church with a Xmas Totem covered in jewelry, and have people celebrating the rising of the Sol Invictus Easter, but if there favorite brand of eschatology isn't preached the pastor is deceiver? Said all that to say this, I'm no one's pastor here, not one of us can take the place of your church family or elders. You have to live there with your pastor, with the brothers and sisters who are trying their best to live for GOD. The pastor is pre trib? Then guess what? Jesus knows all about it doesn't He? You are Pre Wrath, or Post Trib then dear ones, ponder it in your heart. There is nothing worse than an obnoxious eschatology student. I should know, just ask Brother Mike Blume. We do a lot of spit and whittling here, we all learn, and unlearn things. But we always must keep in mind that God placed someone at arm's length to be leadership for us, church family peeps who are our family, who depend on us to help with the chores. If we want to help with the work, then we all have to be moving in the right direction. If your pastor believes Elijah went to heaven, and you don't, then pray "with" him for JESUS to show him. Also, you learning something here isn't necessarily an open door from the Lord to "teach" your pastor. Or bypass your pastor and teach the saints over at Cracker Barrel. Pretty awkward for a preacher to walk up to a table at a restaurant. Where everyone is discussing the new flavor of eschatology. Then when they see the pastor walk up, everyone at the table becomes creepy silent. Work together let Jesus lead the way to a brighter day, and help build the church. World Domination was mentioned in a post, and that is what the church was born to do. It sure won't get there if we can't work with the ones God placed us with.
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Last edited by Evang.Benincasa; 11-22-2018 at 03:17 PM.
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  #182  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:33 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
OK, I understand, and would like to continue this discussion.

But maybe you can make the pictures just a wee smaller.

A different Elijah? Please explain.
James Strong says It's the name of 2 other individuals beside for the prophet. So maybe some one else was named after him. That's how it works could've been Elisha's son. There was a lot of prophets in history not other wise listed in scripture. Or people only listed once.

But who are the other 2 Israelites named ELIJAH's listed in scripture James Strong is talking about. One apparently was name Eliah but who are the 2 the prophet and who else?
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  #183  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:42 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
James Strong says It's the name of 2 other individuals beside for the prophet. So maybe some one else was named after him. That's how it works could've been Elisha's son. There was a lot of prophets in history not other wise listed in scripture. Or people only listed once.

But who are the other 2 Israelites named ELIJAH's listed in scripture James Strong is talking about. One apparently was name Eliah but who are the 2 the prophet and who else?
2 Chronicles 21:12

And there came a writing to him from Elijah THE PROPHET, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
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  #184  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:48 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

Did Eljiah Send a Letter to King Jehoram Years After the Prophet Was Already Dead?
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

According to 2 Chronicles 21, during the reign of King Jehoram, the fifth king of Judah, “a letter came to him from Elijah” in which the prophet rebuked the wicked king and predicted his painful disease and death (2 Chronicles 21:12-15). This account, however, has drawn criticism from some1 since 2 Kings records Elijah being taken up into heaven in chapter 2—six chapters before Jehoram is mentioned as beginning his eight-year reign over Judah (2 Kings 8:16-24). Thus, inquiring minds want to know how Elijah could have penned a letter to a king if the prophet was no longer on Earth?

There are at least two possible, reasonable answers to this question. First, as with many other recorded biblical events,2 it may be that the account of Elijah’s miraculous translation into the spirit realm recorded in 2 Kings 2 was not placed in that particular section of Kings for strict chronological purposes. If the apostle John could place the account of Jesus cleansing the Temple at the beginning of His ministry (John 2:13-22),3 and do so, as some contend, for thematic or theological purposes, rather than chronological reasons, could the inspired penman of Kings not have done something similar? We agree with Keil and Delitzsch, who concluded:

It is impossible to fix the year of Elijah’s ascension. Neither the fact that it is mentioned after the death of Ahaziah of Israel, which he himself had personally foretold to that ungodly king, nor the circumstance that in the war which Jehoshaphat and Joram of Israel waged with the Moabites prophet Elisha was consulted (ch. 3), warrants the conclusion that Elijah was taken from the earth in the interval between these two events. It is very obvious from ch. 3:11 that the two kings applied to Elisha simply because he was in the neighborhood, and not because Elijah was no longer alive.4

Elisha had entered upon this relationship to Elijah long before Elijah’s departure from the earth (1 Kings 19:19ff.). Elijah may therefore have still been alive under Joram of Judah.5

Interestingly, King Jehoram of Judah is actually mentioned in 1 Kings 1:17—before Elijah is translated into heaven. This verse certainly establishes the fact that Jehoram was alive during the time of Elijah and likely hints at the co-regency of Jehoram and his father King Jehoshaphat (cf. 2 Kings 8:16-24),6 which admittedly may cause some confusion when attempting to make precise chronological judgments regarding certain events in Kings and Chronicles.

Even if the events in 2 Kings 1-8 are recorded in a more strict chronological order, however, and Elijah had actually left Earth prior to Jehoram’s independent reign as king began, there still is no proven contradiction between these passages and what the chronicler recorded about Elijah’s letter to Jehoram. Second Chronicles 21:12 does state that “a letter came to” Jehoram “from Elijah the prophet,” but notice that the text does not say that Elijah personally delivered the letter. One simply cannot prove that the text is implying that Elijah was still alive. It could very well be that the prophet Elijah wrote a prophetic letter about King Jehoram’s future sickness and death, which was delivered to the king (perhaps by Elisha) years after Elijah left the Earth. If uninspired people who pass from this life can leave letters and other forms of communication for family members to read (or watch) after their deaths, could a divinely inspired prophet not have arranged for a letter, which he wrote long before, to be delivered at a particular time after his death? To ask is to answer.

Although some may become disturbed upon initially comparing 2 Kings 2 with 2 Chronicles 21, a fair and sober assessment of the text reveals logical explanations for the differences found therein. Perhaps the differences are the result of the events of 2 Kings 2 not being placed in a strict sequential order in the text. Or, it could very well be that Elijah wrote the letter of 2 Chronicles 21 as a prophetic letter before his departure from Earth and long before Jehoram became the sole King of Judah. One thing is certain: no justifiable contradiction has been proven.

ENDNOTES
1 Steve Wells (2016), “The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible,” www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/21.html.

2 See Eric Lyons (2005), “Alleged Chronological Contradictions,” Apologetics Press, /apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1582.

3 As opposed to the end of it, which is where Matthew, Mark, and Luke place the event.

4 C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch (1996), Commentary on the Old Testament: 1 & 2 Kings; 1 & 2 Chronicles (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson), 3:209-210.

5 Ibid., 3:643.

6 See R.D. Patterson and Hermann J. Austel (1988), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: 1 & 2 Kings, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan), 4:173.
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  #185  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:51 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

1ofthechosen, I just had a thought, we have a OT filled with scribal letters from Prophets concerning future events. Isaiah announces a King by name long before the king's birth Isaiah 44:28.
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  #186  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:52 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
2 Chronicles 21:12

And there came a writing to him from Elijah THE PROPHET, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
Who's to say that there isn't 2 Elijah's that were a prophet. Who is the other Elijah find the scripture James Strong got this from.
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  #187  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:52 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
It happened to C.P. Thomas.

Wasn't he kidnapped by Al Qaeda, and he prayed and appeared in his living room?
Right. And Osama Bin Laden’s wives were born again.
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  #188  
Old 11-22-2018, 04:52 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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1ofthechosen, I just had a thought, we have a OT filled with scribal letters from Prophets concerning future events. Isaiah announces a King by name long before the king's birth Isaiah 44:28.
That's true also
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  #189  
Old 11-22-2018, 05:10 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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Who's to say that there isn't 2 Elijah's that were a prophet. Who is the other Elijah find the scripture James Strong got this from.
Yes, that could be very true. But if we were to accept that we just made our job actually harder. Because we are using speculation to prop up a belief. While you and I may high five each other because we came up with a solution, that solution is really not that firm. Because we can't go to the Bible to lay a foundation that there was actually 2 prophets who both had the name Elijah. Historically we even get murkier, because we don't have any information or legend about the 2 prophets. Not even a Jesuit who had the idea.
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  #190  
Old 11-22-2018, 05:12 PM
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Re: Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?

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That's true also
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