Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by shazeep

here it is again. No, you just need to define it in these terms to justify your judgement of others. Many, many Apostolics disagree with you; I would not consider you an Apostolic, personally, regardless of what you might declare. And you might examine why you feel qualified to tell me "go home!" as if you were the superior in this conversation, that has no equal. Who are you kidding? Anyone else, do you think? All you have to do is leave yourself, if you get nothing, or can add nothing.

What are your requirements in order to show love, rather than hate? Why does such a simple statement "bro, you don't wanna say 'all ______ are lost,' because these passages" engender 50 pages of defense, do you think? And not a single reply to the very simple questions that Scripture demands you contemplate, if you imagine that you are a Christian? I will leave now, ty, so that you may continue mocking God, and getting compliments for it.

I believe I dealt with the issues you have broached quite completely.

I was surprised you chose to ignore my comments.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Ferd

So I will attempt to address the concern brought here related to the calling “all muslims lost”

In the first place Paul is careful in Romans 12 to state that in all the Saved have no reason to view themselves as better than the lost.
Ro 12:3 States that we are not to think too highly of ourselves as God has dealt to every man, the measure of faith.

So in all cases our approach cannot be to point to the lost as a measuring stick of our own standing. The bible is clear that it is not Gods will that any should parish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
Peter agrees with Paul and points to God patience. We are therefore enjoined to be patient and longsuffering with the Lost because God loves them, has extended faith to them, and desires that they repent and come to salvation.

BUT

Paul states clearly “if the Gospel be hid, it is hidden to the lost” 2 Cor 4:3
Paul states here that there are lost people. He indicates the lost are those who have NOT received, and embraced the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So Paul is willing to say that some are in fact lost. His intent here is for the purpose of identifying those who need to hear the Gospel.
We by extension, need to have an understanding of salvation and who is saved and who is not because we are enjoined to preach that Gospel message. To be the extension of Jesus who came to “seek and save that which was lost”

Secondly Paul was clear, direct, and unyielding on the subject of false doctrine and false gospels.
Gal 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
He spoke clearly that there are those who would pervert the Gospel and said they were “accursed” That is LOST. He also warned the Galations of their own status if they followed those men who would teach such false doctrines.

It is clear that the Church is enjoined to look at false doctrine and false gospels and deal directly and as Paul points out without desire to “please men”.

So how does that relate specifically to Islam?

First, those who follow Islam are defined as lost because they have not embraced Jesus as savior. These people we must be able to see them as lost because we are enjoined to reach them with the Truth. How can we reach those we do not even see as needing to be reached?

Secondly, we need to understand what Islam is. Is it just a belief system that is wrong, inseparable from the likes of atheism, or Buddhism, or Hinduism? In Paul’s time, there were many different religions. He did not call those who believed in the Greek pantheon as followers of a false Gospel. He saw them as lost and in need of Truth.

But what is Islam? Muslims say they believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. They claim to be part of the same religious family. They also claim belief in Jesus. BUT they say he was a man and a prophet and not “God manifest in the flesh”
The fact is Islam is directly in line with Paul’s pronouncement in Galatians 1! Islam is different from all those who are simply LOST. Islam is a false gospel. It is part and parcel to “Another Gospel”

And therefore, Islam MUST be called out as uniquely pernicious. Saying “ALL Muslims are lost” is to agree with Paul. Not for the purpose of “score boarding“ because we are better, rather to identify those who need to be warned that they follow a false gospel that will in fact ........ them to a devils hell.

As Paul says in Ro 12: 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
And in Gal 1: 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

then by all means, judge foreigners if you feel that is what you should do. I prefer to take the whole of Scripture, including the Good Samaritan, which wadr i would say you avoided.

"8They feed on the sin of My people; they have an appetite for their transgressions."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Isn't that the Muslim, who trusts in his own piety, while staying in his false teaching?

you hope.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

then by all means, judge foreigners if you feel that is what you should do. I prefer to take the whole of Scripture, including the Good Samaritan, which wadr i would say you avoided.

"8They feed on the sin of My people; they have an appetite for their transgressions."

How in the world the good samaritan says people can be said to not be lost even though they trust in salvation works is beyond me.

Hooboy!

[Esaias]

You mean "hooey"...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You mean "hooey"...

Baah Lone EEE!

[mfblume]

Jesus said the first people hired in the vineyard at the third hour got the same wages as the ones hired at the 6th, 9th and 11th hours. The first that were hired thought they deserved more because they did more. But we're not paid by the hour. We're paid by willingness to do the master's will.

They were all paid a penny.

The last hired were chosen first to be paid, that the last shall be first and the first shall be last. Why? To emphasize that one is no better than another because of anything they did. The pay was for willingness to do the master's will. Taking the last and paying him the same as the others first is getting as far away from self work and self worth to earn things, as though one can be better than the other, as we can get!

All this claptrap about us exalting ourselves because we believe all muslims are lost is nonsense. Muslims are lost because they're trying to do more good than others, and God disallows anyone to be saved that way. It's the work of the cross and no believer has the chance to brag, since it's HIS WORK not ours.

And the hours of the 3rd, 6th and 9th were also chosen in the parable to focus on the cross, for Jesus was hanged form the 3rd to the 9th hour when He died. And the 6th hour saw the ski turn black.

The eleventh hour was as far away from the 3rd as one could get and yet still work and be paid. Why? To show IT'S NOT ONE BETTER THAN THE OTHER. But it's everyone forsaking all that makes them great by way of boasting over it it, and following Jesus to make HIM LOOK GREAT. And muslims will refuse to exalt Jesus. WII told me the words about every knee bowing and confessing Jesus is Lord were WRONG. They cannot exalt Jesus. They're lost.

Does that make me better than them? Insanity! It's his work that forces me to abandon any inkling of me being better than others that saves me. And I am forced to believe that by simply following him and realizing I won't be paid according to how better I was. But according to my willingness to abandon salvation by works that would give me cause to boast myself above others.

But folks won't believe this. It's too humbling to admit they're wrong. How ironic, when talking about exalting self!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How in the world the good samaritan says people can be said to not be lost even though they trust in salvation works is beyond me.

Hooboy!

you would have to ask Christ that--"Go, and do likewise"--but i would say again that the GS was not guilty of works, as Job (and most Pentecostals) was--the GS did a good deed, from his heart. Works is repeating verses with your mouth, and doing things "religiously," and expecting to be saved from them. Good deeds are not works. Works are not good deeds. I forget that we are indoctrinated to conflate the two--so that your proclamations in "church" may be termed "salvation," but with all due respect this just is not true.

[shazeep]

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you would have to ask Christ that--"Go, and do likewise"--but i would say again that the GS was not guilty of works, as Job (and most Pentecostals) was--the GS did a good deed, from his heart. Works is repeating verses with your mouth, and doing things "religiously," and expecting to be saved from them. Good deeds are not works. Works are not good deeds. I forget that we are indoctrinated to conflate the two--so that your proclamations in "church" may be termed "salvation," but with all due respect this just is not true.

Good deeds are dead works when we exert them in order to earn heaven, like salvation by works muslims do.

Again, saying muslims are lost is identical to saying no one can be saved through "salvation by works."

Like it or lump it.