Church Ownership

[NotforSale]

I've been a pastor for 16 years. We came to our current city in 1998, starting services in our Home (Home Missions). We purchased 2 1/2 acres and built a small Church on the land about a year after we came here.

I incorporated our Church, applied for Non-Profit status, and today our Church and land are paid for. For years I was unable to draw an income, and without my Tithe and offering, we couldn't have paid the Church bills or even built the church. After approximately 5 years, we had some problems and the congregation was down to about 5 people, which is normal for most works getting off the ground (at least in our area).

Today, we have the longest standing congregation that we've ever had, I am able to draw a small income, and the Church belongs to the people, not me. I didn't become a pastor to make money or to buy land and build my own Kingdom. What happens after I retire or leave is entirely up to those who are still there when I am no longer the pastor.

I will say this; the problem I’ve had is making sure I have good, solid people in place that are planning to stick around so they can deal with the tough decisions that will inevitably come. Having Trustees or Board members that don’t have a burden or that have a short-timers attitude, those are the people I avoid using in leadership because they might be gone tomorrow. This has happened to me in the past, where people left me high and dry, and anyone who has built a church knows exactly what I’m talking about.

The sad thing about this whole ordeal is this; churches use up men, or pastors, not making sure that they are ready for retirement. Pastors usually give until they have nothing left, and unfortunately they wind up at the end of their life with nothing. Because some have not worked outside of the ministry, they have no Social Security or retirement benefits.

We just had a District Meeting, and the DS warned all of the pastors that the UPCI has not done a good job of preparing men for this transition. So, some have sold property or liquidated church assets to save them from a financial collapse. I feel that this is partly the churches fault, as the church is ultimately the people and the people should be concerned about the future of the man who is giving them his heart and soul.

For the sake of myself and the people here, I work full time, don’t live in a Parsonage (I own my own home), have never opted out of Social Security, and I have a nice investment in my business that will help me when that day comes.

[Evenuntodeath]

Originally Posted by ILG

After this man pointed in the face of a man who my husband had appointed as a trustee and yelled "You are not a trustee!" and then after I found a man in a pew crying who told me this man had elbowed him hard on the way out but that he didn't want to press charges, my husband decided to ask this family to leave. The wife had been sitting behind me in the pew badmouthing my husband during his preaching for months and would loudly pray during business meetings about what their wishes were.....keep in mind this family had attended there for 30 years. The night came when my husband was going to ask them to leave and the husband did not show up. The wife did and my husband asked her to leave. She refused. My husband asked her again. She refused again.

Blatant disrespect....smh. I'm sorry you had to go through this.

I wholeheartedly believe God will judge those who lack respect for the congregation and its leadership.

Sometimes people are quick to bad mouth those in leadership without taking the time to understand the sacrifices these people often make. Not to mention members who try to strong hold leadership simply because they give generously in donations and tithing.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Jim Jones' followers
agreed with every word he said, and I believe this
is given for a type.

Where did you get the information that everyone at Jonestown believed Jim Jones? Congressman Leo Ryan (who was murdered) had a few who defected from Jonestown try to leave with him, when he made his fatal visit to Guyana.

You may have a big following, and a large group who tell you that they will follow you everywhere, but there may come a time when they all run, and leave you in the court yard of the high priest.

Not EVERYONE at all times believes the leader, who ever that may be.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath

Blatant disrespect....smh. I'm sorry you had to go through this.

I wholeheartedly believe God will judge those who lack respect for the congregation and its leadership.

Sometimes people are quick to bad mouth those in leadership without taking the time to understand the sacrifices these people often make. Not to mention members who try to strong hold leadership simply because they give generously in donations and tithing.

Thanks....

[Nitehawk013]

In most cases...the bank owns the church.

[houston]

Originally Posted by nitehawk013

in most cases...the bank owns the church.

roflol

[MissBrattified]

I'm not advocating pastors kicking people out for not lining up with all the rules, although flagrant disobedience is causing discord and confusion and God isn't the author of that. If someone pushed the envelope far enough and went out of their way to incite people against the teachings of the local church, removing them as members would be justifiable. There's a difference between someone attending that hasn't reached agreement yet or hasn't come into accord with the rest of the saints and someone who is openly disobeying for the purpose of airing their disagreement.

On the flip side, why would any saint want to stay somewhere that they disagree enough to disobey the rules? If my pastor asked us not to watch videos online, for instance, and we felt too strongly about the right to watch videos to comply, we would either reach an agree-to-disagree point with the pastor (e.g., open, honest communication instead of secret disobedience) or we would attend church elsewhere. Secret disobedience is a matter that goes against my conscience. While open disobedience causes discord, secret disobedience would weigh on my conscience enough to cause a problem between me and God. Does no one else feel the same about that? That would be ESPECIALLY true if I had signed any sort of church member contract agreeing to a set of stipulations.

What is the point of openly disobeying rules and church teachings? What does it accomplish?

And Charnock, are you seriously asserting that you never give your own personal opinions or personal understanding of scripture in your sermons? Really?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'm not advocating pastors kicking people out for not lining up with all the rules, although flagrant disobedience is causing discord and confusion and God isn't the author of that. If someone pushed the envelope far enough and went out of their way to incite people against the teachings of the local church, removing them as members would be justifiable. There's a difference between someone attending that hasn't reached agreement yet or hasn't come into accord with the rest of the saints and someone who is openly disobeying for the purpose of airing their disagreement.

On the flip side, why would any saint want to stay somewhere that they disagree enough to disobey the rules? If my pastor asked us not to watch videos online, for instance, and we felt too strongly about the right to watch videos to comply, we would either reach an agree-to-disagree point with the pastor (e.g., open, honest communication instead of secret disobedience) or we would attend church elsewhere. Secret disobedience is a matter that goes against my conscience. While open disobedience causes discord, secret disobedience would weigh on my conscience enough to cause a problem between me and God. Does no one else feel the same about that? That would be ESPECIALLY true if I had signed any sort of church member contract agreeing to a set of stipulations.

What is the point of openly disobeying rules and church teachings? What does it accomplish?

And Charnock, are you seriously asserting that you never give your own personal opinions or personal understanding of scripture in your sermons? Really?

Great post, I wholeheartedly agree.

My company has rules that I don't necessarily agree with, but I follow them because I agree with way more than I disagree with. And, there have been times that I've gone to my boss and expressed my displeasure with those requirements, and based on the situation, I've gotten a waiver. Other times, the answer is "Well, I know you don't agree, but for the greater good, this is our policy". And, I say ok!

As long as they don't ask me to do anything illegal, unethical, immoral or unsafe, I can deal with it. If I ever get to the point of frustration where I can't deal with those rules anymore, I have the wonderful right and privilege to seek employment elsewhere.

Same should be true for churches, in my opinion. I don't care if the pastor preaches against Christmas trees, hairspray, deodorant, or open toed shoes. If you don't agree, leave. Plain and simple......God will not honor one who sows discord.

Now, I realize it's not quite as cut and dried as I just made it, and there are cases where a church has been established, and a new pastor comes in and starts changing things....that's a stickier subject, but even under those conditions, open rebellion is not the answer.

Just my two cents, as usual!

[The Lemon]

Miss Brat - Great post! I believe you hit the nail on the head when you talked about your conscience if you were to oply disobey etc. You uncovered what the core of the problem is...if folks spent more time praying and meditating on God and the Word, any thought of rebellion would also be met with conviction....right is right, wrong is wrong.

That is why communication is so very important. If disagreements are so great between a pastor and saint or family, and there can be no agreement made because neither side will budge...well then I think the next decision is common sense.

In the case of long standing members or other ministry in the church, it can and does get more complicated...simply because there is more expected of leaders then saints, and because leadership by its very nature is a place of influence. In these cases communication is critical and can be fatal to a ministry if there are not clear expectations on both sides with an open door policy. I have seen instances where there were gross assumptions made by pastors that caused more then a "little" disagreement....you can't assume folks believe and live ALL of what you do as a pastor, you need to make intentions clear.

[The Lemon]

On the same note....I thank God for pastors and leaders who plainly state what they believe the Word proclaims. Even if I don't agree with their interpretation, at least I know full well where they stand on any given subject or doctrine.

It becomes quite a battle if you attend church where beleifs and doctrines are assumed rather then proclaimed and openly taught. As strange as that may sound...there are a lot of good pastors who are hesitant to be open on certain doctrines, for fear that they will run people off before they get a chance to grow some roots.

What can muddy the water further are inconsistencies within a group or organization...for example, in the UPC, the manual clearly states that no one who owns a TV will be granted license...but you may go to an affiliated UPC church and the pastor owns a TV (ala he/she has cable). This inconsistency can lead to questioning other more sacred cows that the leadership refuses to budge on. I suppose that these issues are not as black and white as we sometimes make them out to be...