Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think rdp is referring to the quotes by Epiphanus and Origen and not the actual verse itself. The quotes by them use a masculine (i think) pronoun with the name and this does support the case that it was Junias and not Junia. However rdp failed to even try and refute all the research i did on how modern translations render the name because he knows he was wrong about that point and that I was right (jfrog 1 - rdp 0). So, I'm going to trust the modern new testament scholars that chose to translate the name as Junia (a woman) in EVERY modern new testament translation.

I did a little further research on what a declension is and here is what I found:

Nouns or pronouns that end in different endings tell us something about the noun. For example apple and apples: the different ending tells us whether it is plural. That different ending is called a declension. Most every language has a plural and singular declension. However, some languages also have a masculine and feminine declension. The accent or lack of accent is the masculine/feminine declension for the Greek name Junias/Junia and makes the name into Junias with the accent or Junia without the accent.

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension

So basically it seems rdp really didn't understand what a declension was enough to answer that what you were referencing was a declension OR he just wanted to thump his chest at your ignorance since you was talking about a declension but didn't know it was one.

[Sister Alvear]

Was Junia a woman?
I have read countless articles and books which argue that Junia was a man named Junias and not a woman.[3] The weakness of this argument is that the masculine name, Junias, never actually appears in any Greek literature (or inscription) whatsoever before the 13th century, while the female name, Junia, appears frequently.[4] This fact is widely acknowledged by most modern Bible scholars. Even the translators of the ESV concede that Junia was most likely a woman. (Like many translations, they retain the masculine name, Junias, in a footnote.)
Was Junia an apostle?
I have also heard people minimise the meaning of the word “apostle” when applied to Junia. Certainly, apart from Jesus’ Twelve Apostles who are in a special class, an apostle is simply a minister who serves as a church planter, as an envoy, or as a missionary in a leadership capacity.[5] In the New Testament, several people other than Jesus’ Twelve Apostles are called apostles. These other apostles include: Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Apollos, Timothy, Epaphroditus, Andronicus and Junia – people with important, leadership ministries.[6]
An apostle is literally someone who is “sent” on a mission. Church history is full of examples of both male and female missionaries. Both men and women have pioneered significant ministries which have furthered the Gospel and can validly be described as apostolic.[7]
The ESV gives an alternative meaning for “apostle” in a footnote for Romans 16:7. They suggest that perhaps “apostle” can be translated as “messenger”. This is a weak substitute for the word “apostle” in this context. People in the New Testament who were called apostles were more than just messengers – they were missionary church leaders; and from the brief description we have of Andronicus and Junia, it appears that both of them were involved in significant ministry.
Several Patristic writers acknowledge Junia as a female apostle. [See endnote 13.] In his Homilies on the Book of Romans, fourth century church father, John Chrysostom, preached favourably about Junia, and clearly acknowledged Junia as a female apostle. Writing about Andronicus and Junia, he said:
And indeed to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even among these of note, just consider what a great tribute this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the wisdom of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! Homily 31 on Romans.
Was Junia outstanding?
In most English translations of Romans 16:7, Andronicus and Junia are referred to as “outstanding among the apostles” (Greek: episēmos en tois apostolois).[8] The ESV replaces the usual description of outstanding (Greek: episēmos) with well-known.
BDAG[9] (p378) defines ἐπίσημος (episēmos) as (1) “of exceptional quality, splendid, prominent, outstanding” and it actually quotes from Romans 16:7: “outstanding among the apostles”. As a second, alternative definition, it says: (2) “Also in a bad sense: notorious.”[10] It goes without saying, that Paul could in no way have been implying that Andronicus and Junia were notorious or infamous.
M. H. Brurer and D. B. Wallace[11] however, suggest that the phrase: episēmos en tois apostolois, can be understood and translated in two ways: that Andronicus and Junia may have been “(a) notable members of the group of the apostles; or, (b) not apostles themselves but well known among (i.e. to) the apostles.”
New Testament translators and commentators seem to have chosen one of three options when translating the phrase, episēmos en tois apostolois, into English. (1) Those who thought that Junia(s) was a man have mostly translated this phrase as “outstanding among the apostles”. (2) Those who acknowledge that Junia was actually a woman, such as the ESV, the NET Bible, and a few others, have chosen the “softer” option and translate this phrase as “well-known to the apostles”. (3) Others, who also acknowledge that Junia was a woman, keep the literal translation of “outstanding among the apostles”. This last group of translations includes the NRSV.
[See for yourself how the translation changes when the translators think Junia is a man - Junias, or a woman - Junia, here. Watch out for the "s"! Also scroll down this same, linked page and read the unashamedly prejudiced Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary on Romans 16:7.]
Was Junia well-known to the Apostles?
The most disturbing aspect of the ESV translation of Romans 16:7 is the fact that it completely ignores the Greek word ἐν (en) which is mostly translated as “in” or “among” in English.[12] En is an extremely common word and is used approximately 2830 times in the New Testament. Here are a couple of examples:
“Our Father who is in heaven . . .” Matthew 6:9
“. . .to those among the Diaspora” James 1:1
Interestingly the American Standard Bible, arguably one of the most literal English translations, never translates en as “to” (despite the dative words or phrases which invariably follow it.) Not once in the 2830 odd occurrences is it ever translated as “to”!
I can only think of one reason to translate this phrase as “well known to the apostles”. That reason is to obscure the fact that Junia, along with Andronicus, was actually outstanding among the apostles.
It is important to note that the Greek New Testament never states that a woman cannot be an apostle or church leader. Moreover, in the New Testament, several women are mentioned by name who obviously were church leaders. Sadly, some Bible commentators have persistently tried to minimise their roles. [See my article on New Testament Women Church Leaders.]
Conclusion
In efforts to keep women out of leadership ministries, many Bible translators have been keen to soften the impact of Junia as a valid scriptural precedent of a woman in leadership ministry. In the past they have tried to make her a man.[13] Now that this idea no longer has credence, some translators are trying to minimise her ministry as an apostle.
Was Junia a notable apostle, or was she just well-known to the apostles? Romans 16:7 clearly and literally states that both Andronicus and Junia were outstanding, or notable, among the apostles. However, even if it was just their reputation that was outstanding among the apostles, surely this in itself is a wonderful endorsement of their ministry.
Here is how the New Revised Standard Version translates Romans 16:7:
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. (NRSV)
Endnotes
[1] The Greek word translated in the ESV as “kinsmen” (suggenēs) in Romans 16:7 can refer to male and female relatives. I wonder whether the ESV chose the word “kinsmen”, which sounds particularly masculine to modern readers, to obscure the fact that Junia was a woman? Surely “relative” would be an easier term to comprehend. BDAG (p950) [9] defines συγγενής (suggenēs) as: (1) “Belonging to the same extended family or clan, related, akin to” . . . (2) Belonging to the same people group, compatriot, kin . . . “
[2] Paul obviously held Andronicus and Junia in high esteem and he sent them, and several other ministers, both men and women, his personal greetings in Romans 16. Ten women in all are mentioned in Romans chapter 16. These women were all active in some sort of significant ministry.
[3] The people who believe that Junia(s) was a man, claim that the name found in Romans 16:7 is a contraction of the male name: Junianus. An interesting and scholarly article, somewhat defending this position, here.
[4] The masculine name, Junias, does not appear in any other Greek manuscript – religious or otherwise. The feminine name, Junia, however found in about 250 different Greek manuscripts.

[Sister Alvear]

James D. G. Dunn writes:
Lampe 139–40, 147 [in his Patristic Greek Lexicon] indicates over 250 examples of “Junia,” none of Junias, as was taken for granted by the patristic commentators, and indeed up to the Middle Ages. The assumption that it must be male is a striking indictment of male presumption regarding the character and structure of earliest Christianity. . . We may firmly conclude, however, that one of the foundation apostles of Christianity was a woman and wife. (James D.G. Dunn, Romans 9-16, Word Biblical Commentary, Vol 38B, Dallas, TX: Word, 1988, p. 894.)
John Thorley writes:
The universal view of the early fathers was that the name was Junia, and that she was a woman, and the English Authorised Version of 1611 followed this reading “Junia”, clearly a woman’s name; and in fact “Junias” became a man in English translations only in 1881 when the Revised Version was published. Luther, however, in his German translation of 1552 had already opted for [the masculine] “den Juniam”, and continental translations have since then mostly followed this masculine interpretation. (John Thorley, “Junia, a Woman Apostle” in Novum Testamentum, Vol. 38, January, 1996, pp. 18-29.)
Wayne Grudem quotes Epiphanius who wrote that Junia became bishop of Apameia of Syria. Epiphanius used a masculine pronoun when writing about Junia, however he also referred to Priscilla as being a man. (John Piper and Wayne Grudem, eds, Rediscovering Biblical Manhood and Womenhood, Wheaton, Il: Crossways, 1994, p79 and footnote 19, p479. Sourced from Susanna Krizo, When Dogmas Die, Lake Mary, Fl: Creation House, 2009.)
[5] The function of being an apostle is one the church leadership gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4:11.
And these were his [Jesus'] gifts: some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip God’s people for work in his service, to the building up of the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:11
[6] Other apostles: Paul, Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas, Apollos (1 Corinthians 1:12), Timothy, Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25), Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7). Jesus is also called an apostle in Hebrews 3:1. These people were not merely messengers.
[7] Even though the church has mostly hindered women, (instead of encouraging them in ministry), there have always been a few women who, because of their elevated social position (nobility), personal wealth, exceptional intelligence, tenacity or extraordinary gifts, have functioned as leaders. Catherine of Sienna, Madame Guyon, Amy Carmichael, Gladys Aylward, Countess Huntingdon and Dorothy L. Sayers are just a few who spring to mind. Who knows how much the progress of the Gospel has been diminished by disallowing women to minister as equals, side by side with men?
[8] The following Bible translations use the phrase “outstanding among the apostles” or “of note among the apostles” in Romans 16:7: New International Version (1984); New American Standard Bible (1995); American Standard Bible; International Standard Version (2008); Douay Rheims Bible; Bible in Basic English; Darby Bible Translation; English Revised Version; Webster’s Bible Translation; Weymouth New Testament; Word English Bible; etc.
[9] A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition, by Walter Bauer, revised and edited by F.W Danker, University of Chicago Press, 2000. This Lexicon is highly respected by Christian theologians. It is known as BDAG for short; an acronym of surnames of the four editors who have worked on it: Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich. [I have quoted from BDAG faithfully and objectively.]
[10] Episēmos is used only one other time in the New Testament, in Matthew 27:16, in reference to Barabas, who certainly qualifies as being notorious!
[11] M. H. Brurer and D. B. Wallace, “Was Junia Really an Apostle? A Re-examination of Romans 16:7″ in New Testament Studies, CUP, Vol 47, Number 1, January, 2001, pp 76-91. A version of this paper is available here.
[12] En is always followed by a dative word or phrase. En is commonly translated as “in” or “among”. It can also be translated as “on”, “at”, “by”, “with” or “when” but not “to”.
[13] Junia’s name was masculinised during the 13th century by an unknown manuscript copyist. (All Greek manuscripts copied before the 1200s have the feminine name, Junia.) The masculine name, Junias, was adopted by many English translations of Romans 16:7 until recently.
Dr Leonard Swidler states that the earliest commentator on Romans 16:7, Origen of Alexandria (c.185-255), took the name Junia to be feminine, as did Jerome (c.340-c.420), Hatto of Vercelli (924-961), Theophylact (c.1050-c.1108), and Peter Abelard (1079-1142). In fact no commentator on the text until Aegidus of Rome (1245-1316) took the name to be masculine. (Leonard Swidler, Biblical Affirmations of Women, Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1979.)
© 1st of April, 2010; Margaret Mowczko

[Sister Alvear]

Junia
Romans 16.7 speaks of two notable apostles, Andronicus and Junia, and good authorities agree that "Junia" is a woman's name. So here we have a sister as an apostle and a notable apostle at that. "Salute Andronicus and Junias [some manuscripts say "Julia"], my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me" (16.7). These Apostles were probably doing the Work of the Ministry (Eph. 4.11) even before Paul started. Male-centered systems will try to teach these Apostles are not apostles, rejecting God's commissioning and authority, because they prefer an egotistical system which is abusive towards women. Of course, they believe they are doing the right thing. God's word would never be so unclear as to confuse "of note among the apostles," to be taken to mean they are merely respected by the apostles. No! They are "among the apostles" because they are Apostles. Who is the author of confusion?
This same word for Junia is given in the NLT. The footnote reads, "some manuscripts read Julia." "Salute Philologus, and Julia" (v.15) "who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (v.7). We do not know if they were Apostles before Paul became one, but we know they were born-again before Paul was. Julia means "soft haired" and "youthful". The KJV Concordance refers to Junias ("Iounias" in Greek) as a "Christian woman" and a "Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners." Thayer's Lexicon refers to Junia as "a women's name...and the name occurs again in Rom. 16.15"; "Salute Philologus, and Julia" (v.15).
N.T. Wright said, "Some have made Junias a man, but there is no evidence for a male named Junias, whereas Junia is a well known female name. Paul says they are well known among the Apostles, and some people have tried to say they are well known to the Apostles, but it has been shown quite recently that it cannot mean that. Junia is a woman and she is an Apostle. Women are in leadership positions."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rdp

A very learned Greek professor dissected the term for me [he graduated Greek V w/ an A!]. And, as I said, get the book, then come talk to me!

lol Metzger is enough for me, so are the authors of the NET bible (Wallace was on board) and as well the BDAG

[Praxeas]

Another thought. First of all it's a fanciful argument that "usurp authority over a man" means preaching God's word (it's a bad translation anyways), but wouldn't this also preclude women from secular jobs or any position that puts them in authority where men are concerned? What about as judges?

[Sister Alvear]

besides if authority is given a woman or even a man is not taking authority...

[Sister Alvear]

such as my husband traveled to Chile and asked me to take care of things...I ONLY DID WHAT HE ASKED...

[Praxeas]

Clarke suggests Paul was trying to keep the church in line with Roman law
- A woman should attempt nothing, either in public or private, that belongs to man as his peculiar function. This was prohibited by the Roman laws: In multis juris nostri articulis deterior est conditio foeminarum quam masculorun,; l. 9, Pap. Lib. 31, Quaest. Foeminoe ab omnibus officiis civilibus vel publicis remotae sunt; et ideo nec judicis esse possunt, nec magistratum gerere, nec postulare, nec pro alio invenire, nec procuratores existere; l. 2, de Reg. Juris. Ulp. Lib. i. Ad Sab. - Vid. Poth. Pand. Justin., vol. i. p. 13.

"In our laws the condition of women is, in many respects, worse than that of men. Women are precluded from all public offices; therefore they cannot be judges, nor execute the function of magistrates; they cannot sue, plead, nor act in any case, as proxies." They were under many other disabilities, which may be seen in different places of the Pandects.

[OneAccord]

Ok, so according to some of our illustrious posters, women can't preach. They aren't allowed to teach. Is that the gist of it? So, what ARE women allowed to do? No seriously, what does the Bible allow women to do?

Well, lets see. "your,,, daughters shall prophesy". Does that include speaking in tongues or being used in any of the Gifts of the Spirit? Well, Phillips daughters were prophetesses so I suppose they can be used in the gift of prophecy. But, since there is no scriptural precedence for women laying hands on the sick, I suppose thats out. And, speaking in tongues would have to out for a couple of reasons. One, they are to remain silent in the presence of men and 2), we have no scriptural precedence for women speaking in tongues. Well, there were women present at Pentecost but we are never told specifically that they spoke in tongues (and we have to have direct scriptural evidence).

What about leading worship? Or leading singing? No Bible for that either. What about teaching? Well, the Bible does tell us that the aged women are to teach the younger women "...to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands..." Tts 2:4-5

But to teach younger women, the aged women have to meet certain qualifications, which includes, "teachers of good things". Whoa.... teachers? But Paul said he does not allow "...a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". Accordingly, is a woman forbidden to teach anyone but younger women? What about women teaching children? Any Bible for that?

So, a woman can't preach, teach, lead worship/singing. She can't testify or anything else that requires vocalization (Gotta be in silence, remember?) I guess Priscilla was completely out of order when she assisted her husband in expounding the way of God more perfectly to Apollos. But she couldn't be so bold as to do any expounding. I suppose she assisted by bringing the men some tea or something.

I'm so glad for the day when that veil in the temple was rent in two, giving both Jew and Gentile, male and female, the freedom in Christ to be used of God how He sees fit. There was a day when I'd argue with you tooth and toenail that a woman can't preach. So glad for the day when He took my blinders off and I stopped limiting God to my narrow veiw of what I think the Bible teaches. So glad that 1Cr 12:7 says, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". Oops! that says "every MAN". Sorry ladies, back to the kitchen with ya....