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  #131  
Old 12-20-2010, 11:32 AM
Sabby Sabby is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by BrotherEastman View Post
AWWWWW. you think this is about cliches? Why respond? any of ya. Why get upset or disappointed if that is all that they are.


everyone feel free to gang up on me, doesn't make you right just like it never makes any crowd right. You guys seem to rather have Barabbas than Jesus.....lol.



Wait! I gotta an idea! why don't we all go to hell since that is where most everyone (the crowd) is going anyway. They the crowd interpret scriptures as non literal, so why don't we?



You guys are pathetic and you make me sick.
One vitriolic dolphin that bites!
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  #132  
Old 12-20-2010, 11:32 AM
Socialite Socialite is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
seems your missing it. EVERYTHING is separated to God. it's not your life anymore.



who said in ONLY terms of clothing? Seems you have a hard wired thinking on this and don't listen to the point but your own version of what is said.





If you can't understand the OT principle that all thing is unto God then you need to pray about it.
First... welcome back, TL. It's been awhile since you've been on here.

All of my being is separated to God. My clothes have no moral value. They are only clothes. Fabric. That's all. And the weight and measure legalists like yourself put on clothing is extremely out of balance with that of Jesus and the Apostles... if I were to only go by the narratives and stories they left us. That would be a red flag for me... when the word "holiness" is said at your church, chances are the women are reaching for the skirts, straightening their hair and sitting up in their seats. They've bought into the theology that they can be perfect, that somehow, with enough work that can make it. Beyond that, the fact that most of our churches were thinking the same thing justifies my point about clothing and externals being the ONLY mark of holiness. The byproduct and culture speaks for itself. Besides, it's the easiest to measure and compare.

I dress, hopefully, according to my heart as well. I respect my neighbors, and love my brothers. But clothing has no central role, and in fact, is rarely talked about in my circles. We aren't obsessed about it and don't really have any problems with it. The problem with legalists is that they take something that may have a principle, and make it a uniform code.... creating a system and process that makes people holy. It's rotten, defunct and brings about self-righteousness.

Again... welcome back, elder brother.
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  #133  
Old 12-20-2010, 11:34 AM
Socialite Socialite is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
You know, folks, those who emphasize standards, though offkey due to that in and of itself, will simply not listen to those who do not. The very point in making it an issue of emphasis itself proves this. If a person will go that far in making it emphasis, surely they will not listen to any concept that lessens its emphasis in their minds. THAT is common sense.



I think I've said too much about it myself in contrast to the little attention it actually deserves.
I feel the same.

I start to feel sick having some of these conversations anymore. And I start hearing twilight zone theme music.

I would go as far as to suggest that those who obsess over this topic may be telling much more about their own heart and should ask themselves why they are really obsessing. Beyond the "because I care about God's people" answer. I mean really ask themselves.
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  #134  
Old 12-20-2010, 11:44 AM
Sabby Sabby is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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The point in all of this is that the bible NEVER DID SAY CLOTIHING separated us from anyone as believers. Trying to argue it did and does its antiscriptural and purely an effort to uphold an unbiblical tradition no matter what the facts really are. It was LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER that distinguished the Christians from the world. And in light of the recent chat about the crowd usually being wrong, I find the crowd amongst some circles to be wrong in thinking clothing tells the world we are saved. Jesus's statement was in the minority, and still is today AMONGST SOME CIRCLES OF CHURCHES, in saying our love for one another is what tells the world we are saved.
Great Post.

From the OT Jewish nation until now we have had people confusing what the Kingdom of Heaven means.

And from (before) the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Mathew 11:12

From the Jews to to the RCC to the Peasant Uprising in Germany to the Calvinists in the Netherlands to the Huguenots in France, people are still trying to "take (the kingdom).. by force" with non-spiritual requirements.
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  #135  
Old 12-20-2010, 12:43 PM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
First... welcome back, TL. It's been awhile since you've been on here.

All of my being is separated to God. My clothes have no moral value. They are only clothes. Fabric. That's all. And the weight and measure legalists like yourself put on clothing is extremely out of balance with that of Jesus and the Apostles...
yeah I put a lot of WEIGHT on clothing. Actually I don't. I don't condemn people for different clothing. My simply point is principle reasoning that ALL things matter. Will clothes save me? Of course not! Will I be judged in ALL of my doings before God in the end? Yes! Will it be heaven or hell? Don't know could be and might not be but God will judge justly the whole of the person and ALL things will be accounted for. To say clothes don't matter is to make a absolute case. Clothes are not the source of moral value but a extension of our value toward others in humbleness. It's about the heart and clothes have measure toward the flesh of others. If clothes hold no moral value in extension please go nude.



Quote:
I dress, hopefully, according to my heart as well. I respect my neighbors, and love my brothers. But clothing has no central role, and in fact, is rarely talked about in my circles. We aren't obsessed about it and don't really have any problems with it.
Which says a lot. Why discuss something that is a meaningless subject to people? I know many people who dress very wild and guess what.... they don't talk about it either. Having or not having problems is a matter of perception.

Quote:
The problem with legalists is that they take something that may have a principle, and make it a uniform code.... creating a system and process that makes people holy. It's rotten, defunct and brings about self-righteousness.
I would agree but that can also be said about the we don't teach standards group. Principles have end results at some point you just have to let people follow God and quit being so sensitive about the little things but also realizing it all matters. Everyone draws a line.

Quote:
Again... welcome back, elder brother.
Thanks but I won't be around long as I am very busy and just thought I would make a comment. Have a blessed day!
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  #136  
Old 12-20-2010, 01:35 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
First... welcome back, TL. It's been awhile since you've been on here.

All of my being is separated to God. My clothes have no moral value. They are only clothes. Fabric. That's all. And the weight and measure legalists like yourself put on clothing is extremely out of balance with that of Jesus and the Apostles... if I were to only go by the narratives and stories they left us. That would be a red flag for me... when the word "holiness" is said at your church, chances are the women are reaching for the skirts, straightening their hair and sitting up in their seats. They've bought into the theology that they can be perfect, that somehow, with enough work that can make it. Beyond that, the fact that most of our churches were thinking the same thing justifies my point about clothing and externals being the ONLY mark of holiness. The byproduct and culture speaks for itself. Besides, it's the easiest to measure and compare.

I dress, hopefully, according to my heart as well. I respect my neighbors, and love my brothers. But clothing has no central role, and in fact, is rarely talked about in my circles. We aren't obsessed about it and don't really have any problems with it. The problem with legalists is that they take something that may have a principle, and make it a uniform code.... creating a system and process that makes people holy. It's rotten, defunct and brings about self-righteousness.

Again... welcome back, elder brother.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with your post! However, I believe that every religion has some sort of uniform code regarding clothing.
Some of the hardest "clothesline" preaching I have heard has been on Moody Radio.
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  #137  
Old 12-20-2010, 01:43 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by sabby View Post
and from (before) the days of john the baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. mathew 11:12

from the jews to to the rcc to the peasant uprising in germany to the calvinists in the netherlands to the huguenots in france, people are still trying to "take (the kingdom).. By force" with non-spiritual requirements.
awesome thought!
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  #138  
Old 12-20-2010, 02:38 PM
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
yeah I put a lot of WEIGHT on clothing. Actually I don't. I don't condemn people for different clothing. My simply point is principle reasoning that ALL things matter. Will clothes save me? Of course not! Will I be judged in ALL of my doings before God in the end? Yes! Will it be heaven or hell? Don't know could be and might not be but God will judge justly the whole of the person and ALL things will be accounted for. To say clothes don't matter is to make a absolute case. Clothes are not the source of moral value but a extension of our value toward others in humbleness. It's about the heart and clothes have measure toward the flesh of others. If clothes hold no moral value in extension please go nude.

see my comments on your nude argument below... clothes are one extension in a very minor sense among thousands of others.... it's amazing how much preeminence they get... and at the end of the day, your principle of our clothes having meaning I'd agree with, your belief of how the local church should enforce a dress code I don't....

Which says a lot. Why discuss something that is a meaningless subject to people? I know many people who dress very wild and guess what.... they don't talk about it either. Having or not having problems is a matter of perception.



I would agree but that can also be said about the we don't teach standards group. Principles have end results at some point you just have to let people follow God and quit being so sensitive about the little things but also realizing it all matters. Everyone draws a line.

So let everyone draw a line Quit with the legalistic thinking that they need you to draw it.


Thanks but I won't be around long as I am very busy and just thought I would make a comment. Have a blessed day!
I can answer that question with a little more assurance, thanks to Romans 8. You can include clothes there as things that separate us from the love of God.

Fact is, not everything that is "wild" to me is wrong. My preference is my preference. A kid living in the City is going to wear city clothes. If he were to walk into the middle of a provincial town in Mississippi, I reckon' he'd look rather wild. And those who are mature in Christ will have more Gospel-centeredness in their life. I don't have to be anxious and make sure everyone is dressing how I think they should. I don't have to be in control.

Regarding the "going nude" topic -- it's just a heart thing. The tribe in Africa that sports their birthday suit year-round aren't trying to seduce and be sensual. The young lady who wear her cleavage on full display, wears thong bikinis to the grocery store and who douses herself in perfumes and gaudy lipsticks..... you'd have to wonder if there is a heart issue there. If there is, instead of telling her to change her clothes, you help disciple her through that issue. (That's not to say we wouldn't tell a believer they were dressing inappropriately if they showed up to worship wearing next to nothing -- but honestly, I've never had that issue! Ever! It's one of those extreme examples that I've just never seen necessary).
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  #139  
Old 12-20-2010, 06:35 PM
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*AQuietPlace* *AQuietPlace* is offline
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
I feel the same.

I start to feel sick having some of these conversations anymore. And I start hearing twilight zone theme music.
.

That's exactly the way it's started affecting me.

It just seems weird now to obsess so much over clothing.
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  #140  
Old 12-20-2010, 07:29 PM
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Re: Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

IF clothing were such an issue, then do you not think Jesus would have spent some time on the issue addressing the principles of proper clothing while here on earth? He certainly spent a lot of time addressing many other issues, including marriage, divorce, adultery, fornication, and spent much of his time setting free demon-possessed people, harlots, adulterers and the list goes on. Why didn't Jesus address their clothing after he set them free? I've always wondered that. Because surely they were dressed inappropriately when he delivered them. But he simply said, Go and sin no more. No explicit instructions on dress code given there that I can see. Jesus surely wouldn't have fit into any of the current OP churches in our day.

But I DO read where Jesus spoke about the Pharisees to his disciples in Matthew 23


1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

There you have it in Jesus' own words, his SCATHING words to the Pharisees about their righteous clothing and hypocritical ways. He certainly wasn't praising them for it. He was instead condeming them.
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