Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-03-2014, 06:19 PM
phareztamar phareztamar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 484
born of water

Born of Water

Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


The Acts 2:38 message was first preached by Moses, at the base of the mount. It is confirmed throughout the Acts accounts, and is our very core doctrine. Water baptism…by complete immersion…in the name of Jesus Christ, is clearly a foundation stone of the new covenant. But to teach this water baptism from our text verse in John, is wrong.

Many ministers misquote this passage to read, “except a man be born again of water and of the spirit…” Not of any ill intent…but in zealous support of our position on water baptism. Our sanctioned bible study “In My Father’s House”…in Room One, paragraph three, finds the honorable Elder Yonts saying: “When we are baptized in Jesus’ name, we are born of the water.” Even the marginal notes of a Thompson Chain Reference Bible…here in John…states: 756-Baptism enjoined (1) Acts 2:38.

But the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, has nothing to do with water baptism. The whole crux of their discussion is new birth. Not death (repentance)…not burial (water baptism)…but new birth. Moreover, great plainness of speech is used, to show that this new birth is entirely spiritual in nature. It is an anointing seal…given only by our Lord…to each one personally.

What is ironic, is that in every reference to water baptism, we ourselves concur that the rite represents a burial, or a grave. Only here in John, do we reverse our hermeneutic, and make water baptism part of a birth experience. There are ample scriptures in the bible to support baptism in Jesus’ name. But in rightly divided scripture, this text in John is not among them.

Jesus’ first words on the matter state:

Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

And at the last, he closes the argument with these words:

The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

No mention of water baptism, or water birth, in either the intro or the summary, of our Lord’s lesson. He teaches that the new birth…the born again moment…is a single, spiritual birth. Is it prefaced with a death and a burial? With repentance and water baptism? Yes, the scriptures bear this out. It is the usual order, and thus we so teach.

There simply is no tenable argument; against the process of salvation mirroring the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. Moses prophesied this in the altar of death, the laver of washing, and the presence of God in the holiest place. But the new birth is the resurrection part of that process. The born of the spirit here taught, is the climax of that salvation experience. We need not drag the laver into the holy place.

Born of water is mentioned a single time in their discussion. A befuddled Nicodemus asks Jesus:

How can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb?

Concerning that natural birth, Jesus teaches:

Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Jesus is here drawing a contrast between two births…not encouraging a new, two-part birth. The fleshly birth from a nine month amniotic sac, is not enough Nicodemus. You must be born again. It is the Lord himself making the argument here; that born of water, and born of the flesh, are synonymous terms. Paul echoes the same argument in Galatians; as does Peter, in his comparison between corruptible seed, and incorruptible seed.

The fact that you’re sitting here reading this, affirms you’re halfway there. You’ve made it through born of water. You out-rassled millions upon millions of other sperm cells, and qualified for life. But having so done, you now must be born again. Your water birth gave you this life. Your spiritual birth gives you life everlasting. You must be born again.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-03-2014, 08:34 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
Re: born of water

I disagree. Water and Spirit are clearly seen to be emphasis of Jesus in John 3, and the emphasis in Acts is water baptism and Spirit baptism. I have believed for years that death burial and resurrection are in baptism.

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

Last edited by mfblume; 12-03-2014 at 08:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-03-2014, 08:59 PM
phareztamar phareztamar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 484
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I disagree. Water and Spirit are clearly seen to be emphasis of Jesus in John 3, and the emphasis in Acts is water baptism and Spirit baptism.
Don't know if you read this part of the post:

Born of water is mentioned a single time in their discussion. A befuddled Nicodemus asks Jesus:

How can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb?

Concerning that natural birth, Jesus teaches:

Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Jesus is here drawing a contrast between two births…not encouraging a new, two-part birth. The fleshly birth from a nine month amniotic sac, is not enough Nicodemus. You must be born again. It is the Lord himself making the argument here; that born of water, and born of the flesh, are synonymous terms. Paul echoes the same argument in Galatians; as does Peter, in his comparison between corruptible seed, and incorruptible seed.

So no, water and spirit are NOT clearly seen to be the emphasis of Jesus in John 3. Spirit...and Spirit baptism are His emphasis.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-03-2014, 09:02 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by phareztamar View Post
Don't know if you read this part of the post:

Born of water is mentioned a single time in their discussion. A befuddled Nicodemus asks Jesus:

How can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb?

Concerning that natural birth, Jesus teaches:

Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Jesus is here drawing a contrast between two births…not encouraging a new, two-part birth. The fleshly birth from a nine month amniotic sac, is not enough Nicodemus. You must be born again. It is the Lord himself making the argument here; that born of water, and born of the flesh, are synonymous terms. Paul echoes the same argument in Galatians; as does Peter, in his comparison between corruptible seed, and incorruptible seed.

So no, water and spirit are NOT clearly seen to be the emphasis of Jesus in John 3. Spirit...and Spirit baptism are His emphasis.
I heard that view before but it appears to me that Acts negates it. It's simple. Look in Acts to see where water and Spirit come into view.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-03-2014, 09:06 PM
phareztamar phareztamar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 484
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I heard that view before but it appears to me that Acts negates it. It's simple. Look in Acts to see where water and Spirit come into view.
You're all over the board my brother. Hard to have a fruitful discussion with you, when you keep jumping around like that.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-03-2014, 09:07 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by phareztamar View Post
You're all over the board my brother. Hard to have a fruitful discussion with you, when you keep jumping around like that.
I am sticking with my original premise and working from there. I haven't jumped from it to anywhere else as you claim.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:03 AM
jfrog's Avatar
jfrog jfrog is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,001
Re: born of water

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


What the "baptism and spirit filled required for the new birth believers" confess is that only "being born of the Spirit" makes one half-born again. Yet, Jesus spoke of those "born of the Spirit" as if they were fully born again. How can that be?
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:02 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


What the "baptism and spirit filled required for the new birth believers" confess is that only "being born of the Spirit" makes one half-born again. Yet, Jesus spoke of those "born of the Spirit" as if they were fully born again. How can that be?
The Spirit is intricately involved in water baptism and spirit baptism. Being "born of the Spirit" is not another way of saying "Spirit baptism" but being "born of the Spirit"is the same as saying being" born of water and the Spirit."
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:24 PM
jfrog's Avatar
jfrog jfrog is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,001
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
The Spirit is intricately involved in water baptism and spirit baptism. Being "born of the Spirit" is not another way of saying "Spirit baptism" but being "born of the Spirit"is the same as saying being" born of water and the Spirit."
Think about what you are saying for a moment. If being born of spirit means being born of water and the spirit then Jesus saying you must be born of water and the spirit is actually Jesus saying you must be born of water and of water and the spirit. Do you really think that's the best way to read John 3:5?
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:12 PM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ.: Baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus in 1982.
Posts: 2,065
Re: born of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
What the "baptism and spirit filled required for the new birth believers" confess is that only "being born of the Spirit" makes one half-born again. Yet, Jesus spoke of those "born of the Spirit" as if they were fully born again. How can that be?
We should read the full context in the scriptures.

If someone at point A asked how to get from point A to point C, and was told that he must pass through point B: would you suppose that he went through point B, if you later saw that same person at point C?

"He that is born of the flesh is flesh; and he that is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus must have known that to get from the flesh to the Spirit, a person must pass through the waters (obedience)!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Born that way, huh... aegsm76 Political Talk 1 08-24-2012 02:58 PM
Born of water and Spirit to enter heaven skraito Fellowship Hall 15 03-12-2012 11:47 AM
Born in the USA. AncientPaths Fellowship Hall 0 04-27-2011 10:13 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Amanah
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.