Are toys graven images?

[Esaias]

Crazy, right? Well, I've discovered that many christians believe that the 2nd commandment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven, the earth, or the seas, and this includes toy dolls, toy animals, nick-knacks in the house, busts, statues, etc. some go further and say it prohibits paintings, pictures, drawings, etc.

The argument is simple - the 2nd commandment contains two elements. First, not to make any likeness. Second, not to bow down to or worship said likenesses. They say the prohibited thing is prohibited, regardless of what a person does to or with it. They say the command is not to make graven images, and also (second part) to not use them as objects of worship. Thus, if a person makes a graven image, but does not worship it or bow down to it, they still are violating the second commandment, just as a person who worships an idol, but does not MAKE an idol, is violating the commandment.

So then, for example, a toy farm set with farmer, his wife, and animals, is forbidden, not because they are 'idols' and are 'worshipped', but because they are graven images which are forbidden.

Does anyone have any relevant thoughts on this? Are they right? Wrong? Is there a BIBLE answer to the question?

[RandyWayne]

We went to a pretty conservative church during the 80's and I do not recall ever hearing this first hand or hearing about anyone who believed this, even 2nd hand. There were a FEW who refused to use or own dice or playing cards (which I suppose can be considered toys by many) but even back then they were a dying breed.

However having said all that, the most ironic thing of all is that I had a very specific conviction which lasted many years against having any sort of poster on my walls. While I don't consider it "wrong" now, I felt this way long enough that by the time I didn't -I was beyond the age where someone would typically have one anyways, thus I never DID have any. I guess the only thing I have on our walls now are photos (most of which I personally took) and a few calenders hanging.

(I do still have some 'action figures' though!)

I will also add that I took ZERO offense from others who had them. I highly doubt anyone realized my own personal feelings on the issue as I recognized it as being so personal that I really felt no need to evangelize the topic.

[Aquila]

No.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No.

Thanks for the in depth discussion!

lol

[TGBTG]

By their logic, a plastic bowl is a graven image also..lol.

As far as biblical answer, 1 Cor 8 deals with this in principle. (Just to paraphrase). An idol is nothing, only one God. But some christians do not have this understanding, so they still esteem non living objects (or foods sacrificed to idols) as something wrong.

Because of their lack of understanding, they feel guilty.

But in reality, those things (food, toys, etc) are just objects, no different than a styrofoam cup being labeled a graven image.

Also, like you noted in your post, the intent of EX 20:4 was "to not worship other gods". (not just the object)

Case in point, Moses was told to make a brazen serpent for Israel to look to and be saved from their snake bites.

By looking at the brazen serpent, they were obeying God,and were healed.

The same brazen serpent later became for them something they began to worship aside from God.

Was the brazen serpent in of itself wrong? no.
Their worship of it was sin though.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Crazy, right? Well, I've discovered that many christians believe that the 2nd commandment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven, the earth, or the seas, and this includes toy dolls, toy animals, nick-knacks in the house, busts, statues, etc. some go further and say it prohibits paintings, pictures, drawings, etc.

The argument is simple - the 2nd commandment contains two elements. First, not to make any likeness. Second, not to bow down to or worship said likenesses. They say the prohibited thing is prohibited, regardless of what a person does to or with it. They say the command is not to make graven images, and also (second part) to not use them as objects of worship. Thus, if a person makes a graven image, but does not worship it or bow down to it, they still are violating the second commandment, just as a person who worships an idol, but does not MAKE an idol, is violating the commandment.

So then, for example, a toy farm set with farmer, his wife, and animals, is forbidden, not because they are 'idols' and are 'worshipped', but because they are graven images which are forbidden.

Does anyone have any relevant thoughts on this? Are they right? Wrong? Is there a BIBLE answer to the question?

I personnally haven't come across any christians against owning toys, but this is the same logic most use against celebrating xmas.

It's almost xmas. Might as well start arguing if it's right or wrong...

Side note: I initially thought you posted "The 2nd ammendment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven..."

[Wonder]

No I don't think so

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Crazy, right? Well, I've discovered that many christians believe that the 2nd commandment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven, the earth, or the seas, and this includes toy dolls, toy animals, nick-knacks in the house, busts, statues, etc. some go further and say it prohibits paintings, pictures, drawings, etc.

The argument is simple - the 2nd commandment contains two elements. First, not to make any likeness. Second, not to bow down to or worship said likenesses. They say the prohibited thing is prohibited, regardless of what a person does to or with it. They say the command is not to make graven images, and also (second part) to not use them as objects of worship. Thus, if a person makes a graven image, but does not worship it or bow down to it, they still are violating the second commandment, just as a person who worships an idol, but does not MAKE an idol, is violating the commandment.

So then, for example, a toy farm set with farmer, his wife, and animals, is forbidden, not because they are 'idols' and are 'worshiped', but because they are graven images which are forbidden.

Does anyone have any relevant thoughts on this? Are they right? Wrong? Is there a BIBLE answer to the question?

To me, and since I believe it, it must be right, for something to be a graven image it would be something which represents a god or gods, a deity. A toy tractor wouldn't be the same thing as a statue of Zeus (even though Zeus never existed) for example.

As far as a biblical example of an image that isn't a graven image, one that comes to mind (and this troubles me that I even thought of this) is the example here in scripture.....

1Sa 5:9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.

1Sa 5:12 And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven.

1Sa 6:5 Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.

1Sa 6:11 And they laid the ark of the LORD upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods.

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Crazy, right? Well, I've discovered that many christians believe that the 2nd commandment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven, the earth, or the seas, and this includes toy dolls, toy animals, nick-knacks in the house, busts, statues, etc. some go further and say it prohibits paintings, pictures, drawings, etc.

The argument is simple - the 2nd commandment contains two elements. First, not to make any likeness. Second, not to bow down to or worship said likenesses. They say the prohibited thing is prohibited, regardless of what a person does to or with it. They say the command is not to make graven images, and also (second part) to not use them as objects of worship. Thus, if a person makes a graven image, but does not worship it or bow down to it, they still are violating the second commandment, just as a person who worships an idol, but does not MAKE an idol, is violating the commandment.

So then, for example, a toy farm set with farmer, his wife, and animals, is forbidden, not because they are 'idols' and are 'worshipped', but because they are graven images which are forbidden.

Does anyone have any relevant thoughts on this? Are they right? Wrong? Is there a BIBLE answer to the question?

MANY? Really? How many is many? Cuz I've never ever heard of anyone teaching or believing this nonsense. And frankly, if I were in a church where it started to be taught, I would have to assume that someone jumped off the deep end and I'd be out of there immediately!

the only thing I've ever heard that even comes close to this teaching is the Amish who don't believe their little girls' dolls should have faces on them.

[Esaias]

I appreciate the responses but I think some of you may have missed the point.

The point is - the commandment forbids the making of any likeness or 'image' of living things. It also forbids the use of them for objects of worship.

Thus, there are TWO PARTS to the commandment.

A child's doll or toy animal, or a person's little statue of an animal used as a decoration, would therefore qualify as a forbidden object, right?

Someone brought up the emerods and mice... was that commanded by God or did the pagans come up with that on their own? (Just wondering, I can't recall the entire story right off hand).

I do remember the brazen serpent, which I always thought was weird... I understand it being a type of Christ, lifted up, to whom if we look we will be healed... but then if we take the typology further does it not indicate worship of Jesus is idolatry?

Besides which, I can't imagine nobody in Moses' day didn't go 'Say what? Make a brass serpent, put it on a pole, and anyone bit by a snake will go and look on the serpent and be healed? Moses! Not that long ago you had a bunch of us killed for making a gold cow, now you want us to make a brass snake? Wha...?'

lol