You think Trinitarians accept you?

[JamDat]

For those of you that think mainstream Evangelicals love and accept OP's and therefore we should reciprocate the same to them had better wake up. You will learn in the following that they think you are a heretic and will go to hell if you continue believing in your false god.

This is not about condoning TD Jakes, but to let you see what trinitarians really think about you.


There is an uproar in the Evangelical world over an upcoming conference called The Elephant Room (http://www.theelephantroom.com/)

TD Jakes has been invited and it's spinning the heads of some major people in that world. Not because he's a "word faith" preacher, but because he is oneness. While the names might not to familiar to some OP's they are familiar to many others in the Evangelical world.

This link is from James McDonald who is hosting The Elephant Room conference and he is taking so much flack from inviting TD Jakes that his critics are just short of calling him a heretic too. http://jamesmacdonald.com/blog/?p=9130

The following links are just some of the blogs that use heavy language concerning OP's.

http://hereiblog.com/td-jakes-associ...g-discernment/

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worl...articleid=7602

http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/20...-our-reaction/

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/...elephant-room/

http://www.challies.com/articles/mac...nt-in-the-room

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/09...-heretics.html

Wake up OP's because your beloved trinitarians think you're a heretic that will split hell wide open.

[Michael The Disciple]

The "Apologetics" types are the worse. The more well studied they are the harsher they are is my experience. The rank and file believers will side with their leaders. There are always exceptions. I still have friends among them.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The "Apologetics" types are the worse. The more well studied they are the harsher they are is my experience. The rank and file believers will side with their leaders. There are always exceptions. I still have friends among them.

When I attended Western Seminary my apologetics prof was Gerry Breshears, co-author (w/Driscoll) of Vintage Jesus. We had several friendly discussions about the oneness movement before and after his apologetics class. I learned from Gerry that the NorCal campus had hired Jeff Garner as an adjunct professor. In his mind (Gerry's), the argument is mostly a semantic one, and in fact said he has no problem with Word pre-existant prior to, during and since the incarnation of the Son in Beth-lehem. Gerry is the head of the Theology Department but I don't know for how long!

The book, Vintage Jesus, without exception, is one of the most Jesus-glorifying books I've ever read, with the exception of an off-handed two sentence cut and paste from Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults slamming Oneness. I emailed Gerry about the ad hominem statement concerning (all) oneness believers, and his exact words to me were, "It should have never made it into the book", and said the biggest difference he saw with traditional pentecostal "trinitarians" and "oneness" is SEMANTICS. He asked me (this was 5 or six years ago) if I thought the two groups would ever reconcile. I expressed my doubts they would, because there are hardliners on BOTH sides.

I hope Mark Driscoll can allow a real dialogue to happen...but even if he pulls it off there will remain those trinitarian hardliners that can't shake their Dallas Theological Seminarian roots. They will attack anyone not willing to use the term PERSON describing Father, Son and Holy Ghost as their own litmus test, much like Oneness people use Jesus' name baptism as their's.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Sabby

In his mind (Gerry's), the argument is mostly a semantic one, and in fact said he has no problem with Word pre-existant prior to, during and since the incarnation of the Son in Beth-lehem. Gerry is the head of the Theology Department but I don't know for how long!

I'm trying to understand how this is different from Trinitarianism. Trins believe that the eternal Son existed (distinct from the Father) prior to, during, and since the Incarnation. Oneness people deny this.

Originally Posted by Sabby

The book, Vintage Jesus, without exception, is one of the most Jesus-glorifying books I've ever read, with the exception of an off-handed two sentence cut and paste from Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults slamming Oneness. I emailed Gerry about the ad hominem statement concerning (all) oneness believers, and his exact words to me were, "It should have never made it into the book", and said the biggest difference he saw with traditional pentecostal "trinitarians" and "oneness" is SEMANTICS. He asked me (this was 5 or six years ago) if I thought the two groups would ever reconcile. I expressed my doubts they would, because there are hardliners on BOTH sides.

Wow, I have browsed Driscoll/Breshears' Vintage Jesus and noticed the short section about Oneness Pentecostalism. I did not know that Breshears actually feels the issue is semantic.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

I'm trying to understand how this is different from Trinitarianism. Trins believe that the eternal Son existed (distinct from the Father) prior to, during, and since the Incarnation. Oneness people deny this.



Wow, I have browsed Driscoll/Breshears' Vintage Jesus and noticed the short section about Oneness Pentecostalism. I did not know that Breshears actually feels the issue is semantic.

Breshears understands the godhead better than most oneness people do. And he told me personally (after apologetics class) that in his opinion, the biggest reason for the disunity is over "semantics". I tend to agree. I think that's why he asked me what I thought about John 17.
If you read the by-laws of the PCI (pre-merger), you will see where the terms manifestions and persons are used interchangeably concerning describing the godhead.

A prior post about the "Wretched radio" kinda nails it. It wouldn't matter if you agreed with the "educated" apologists for trinitarianism. No, you OPs are SO dangerously heretical that they demand you RECANTING your position. It doesn't matter if you have used the scriptures to explain your position. They rely exclusively on patristic era writings and those of the "church fathers", and you had BETTER say the words F,S&HG in water baptism else you are a JESUS ONLY. Is that semantic?
I didn't think it was such a big deal to Trini's (thought only OPs were that way). As an independent pastor of a mission church I considered licensure w/the Pentecostal Church of God to have a "fellowship" circle-so to speak- for our folks. Once the regional director understood I had graduated from a oneness bible college the gloves came off. His tone changed from an entreating attitude ("we'd love to have you, brother") to a very aggressive combative tone ("you will have to sign a pledge promising that you will not baptize anyone in any other way but in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost!"). I was amazed. And convinced I wanted nothing to do with them.

I know oneness people that express amazement when they discover "other" christians believe the same as they do concerning the godhead. They realize they've been mistaken by believing oneness mantra that the outside church world does not necessarily believe in three gods. Is this semantic...yes, it is.

You have hardliners on both sides that won't budge for fear of a loss of reputation. They wind up preaching to "amen choirs" that subsidize their ministries.

Again, I hope Mark Driscoll has a right spirit and without fear have an open dialogue.

[ThePastorsCoach]

These groups are small and insignificant - smaller than the UPC. Who cares what they think? TD Jakes turns down thousands of invitations to preach and does not want for a place to minister. These people are not influencing many. For the most part - they teach against the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues.

I can tell you from my experience - Oneness Pentecostals & Trinitarian Pentecostals - LOVE TD JAKES and that my friend is a FACT!

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

These groups are small and insignificant - smaller than the UPC. Who cares what they think? TD Jakes turns down thousands of invitations to preach and does not want for a place to minister. These people are not influencing many. For the most part - they teach against the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues.

I don't think I would call The Gospel Coalition "small and insignficant."

www.thegospelcoalition.org

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

I don't think I would call The Gospel Coalition "small and insignficant."

www.thegospelcoalition.org

I was going to respond with the same, but with some it's just not worth it because you get nowhere fast.

[Steve Epley]

Thanks when the Oneness leaders had that meeting with the Trinitarians and Charismatic leaders a few years ago, the Oneness guys came back saying they are looking our way and the top AG guy came back saying the Oneness folks were hereticks and would have to repent of their heresy before the AG would fellowship them.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Thanks when the Oneness leaders had that meeting with the Trinitarians and Charismatic leaders a few years ago, the Oneness guys came back saying they are looking our way and the top AG guy came back saying the Oneness folks were hereticks and would have to repent of their heresy before the AG would fellowship them.

Dear Bro Epley

When it comes to the oneness message, I stand solidly behind you.
We are not retreating from this message by one inch, we have absolutely nothing to repent of.

I do not care to fellowship with those folks under those terms, I really do not care that I have been callled every vile name they could think of.

Because I preach the oneness message
I have been called
"A false Prophet'
"Jim Jones"
and a whole bunch of other names, well I do not care, I am still going to preach one God.