my rant

[allstate1]

First of all let me say I know most of these issues have been discussed so just let me vent! The longer I live the more questions I have about a few things. Matthew 28:19 vs Acts 2:38 I lean more toward the three step because of the chronological order. However the Jesus name vs the titles and the oneness vs the trinity view points I can see both sides! I just dont believe God is gonna send anyone to hell for not knowing something that is impossible to know until we see (get to heaven)!! Then there is the "standards". Most of Christianity agrees on the Ten Commandment type sins but the more popular denominations Baptist,Lutheran,Methodist etc have a very different viewpoints on "standards" compared to Pentecostal/Holiness! Almost every sermon I have heard in my 38 years about sin has been about the UPC standards (dress, hair, TV etc..)!! It seems that its easier to get saved than to stay saved. When Peter was asked what must we do to be saved he didnt follow Acts 2:38 with "and now do everything Paul says!!!!! Why if the UPC is the self acclaimed church of the book of Acts why are they so consumed and obsessed with Pauls letters to the different churches?? How can you have a standard and ignore cultural and historical time frame differences?? Why is the Pentecostal/Holiness type (UPC WPF ALJC etc ) so obsessed with outward appearance?? I will never believe outward apearance (the uniform) is a sign of inward holiness!!!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by allstate1

First of all let me say I know most of these issues have been discussed so just let me vent! The longer I live the more questions I have about a few things. Matthew 28:19 vs Acts 2:38 I lean more toward the three step because of the chronological order. However the Jesus name vs the titles and the oneness vs the trinity view points I can see both sides! I just dont believe God is gonna send anyone to hell for not knowing something that is impossible to know until we see (get to heaven)!! Then there is the "standards". Most of Christianity agrees on the Ten Commandment type sins but the more popular denominations Baptist,Lutheran,Methodist etc have a very different viewpoints on "standards" compared to Pentecostal/Holiness! Almost every sermon I have heard in my 38 years about sin has been about the UPC standards (dress, hair, TV etc..)!! It seems that its easier to get saved than to stay saved. When Peter was asked what must we do to be saved he didnt follow Acts 2:38 with "and now do everything Paul says!!!!! Why if the UPC is the self acclaimed church of the book of Acts why are they so consumed and obsessed with Pauls letters to the different churches?? How can you have a standard and ignore cultural and historical time frame differences?? Why is the Pentecostal/Holiness type (UPC WPF ALJC etc ) so obsessed with outward appearance?? I will never believe outward apearance (the uniform) is a sign of inward holiness!!!

From what I've seen, the UPC isn't "consumed and obsessed with Pauls letters to the different churches." They just pick out a few proof texts and go from there. The vast majority of Paul's writings concern the relationship of Grace in salvation. Most UPCers will tend to ignore this.

Over all, however, I agree with your "rant." It is "easier" to get "saved" in a UPC style church than it is to "stay saved." That's why we cycle through so many people. The whole org seems designed to chew up human beings and spit them out. There's really very little about actually living in grace.

If you don't like the "standards," no problem. Get Out! We'll find another poor sucker to fill your pew.

[TGBTG]

1 Cor 1:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
How about they just preach Christ and Him crucified?

As per staying saved:
Jude 1
(24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, (25) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jesus keeps us from falling. If we walk with Jesus, we ain't got nothing to be worried about. As for me, I know whom I have believed that He is able to keep me. The same Jesus who saved (not based on my merits) will keep me to the end (not based on merits). I am a firm believer of the Jesus being God (not in trinity terms) and Jesus name baptism. However, I fellowship with trinitarians because I'm at liberty as long as I don't use my liberty as an occasion to the flesh.

"Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." One has to wonder, why are we commanded to stand fast in our liberty? Because if you don't, MEN WILL TRY TO TAKE YOUR LIBERTY FROM YOU as they tried in Galatians. Ok..i'm done

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

From what I've seen, the UPC isn't "consumed and obsessed with Pauls letters to the different churches." They just pick out a few proof texts and go from there. The vast majority of Paul's writings concern the relationship of Grace in salvation. Most UPCers will tend to ignore this.

Over all, however, I agree with your "rant." It is "easier" to get "saved" in a UPC style church than it is to "stay saved." That's why we cycle through so many people. The whole org seems designed to chew up human beings and spit them out. There's really very little about actually living in grace.

If you don't like the "standards," no problem. Get Out! We'll find another poor sucker to fill your pew.

If this were the case, wouldn't there be a lot of independent Oneness. 1 step, no standard churches that are packed?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If this were the case, wouldn't there be a lot of independent Oneness. 1 step, no standard churches that are packed?

No. Just a lot of people who are angry and resentful of their experiences with "Oneness Pentecostals" in general. Most would probably have sworn off any kind of church.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If this were the case, wouldn't there be a lot of independent Oneness. 1 step, no standard churches that are packed?

Well there aren't a lot of independent Oneness churches, especially outside of the Bible belt to choose. And then, what Pel said. A lot of people are so disillusioned that they don't go to church at all.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Well there aren't a lot of independent Oneness churches, especially outside of the Bible belt to choose. And then, what Pel said. A lot of people are so disillusioned that they don't go to church at all.

It's sad the people who have been injured and driven out from among us and destroyed and have been left strewn along the roadside because of what they've seen and how they've been treated in our churches.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by pelathais

From what I've seen, the UPC isn't "consumed and obsessed with Pauls letters to the different churches." They just pick out a few proof texts and go from there. The vast majority of Paul's writings concern the relationship of Grace in salvation. Most UPCers will tend to ignore this.

Over all, however, I agree with your "rant." It is "easier" to get "saved" in a UPC style church than it is to "stay saved." That's why we cycle through so many people. The whole org seems designed to chew up human beings and spit them out. There's really very little about actually living in grace.

If you don't like the "standards," no problem. Get Out! We'll find another poor sucker to fill your pew.

This is soooo true.

[A.W. Bowman]

While it is has yet to catch on through out the entire body of Christ, there are many folks who are no longer content to sit back and listen every week the same old song and dance from the platforms.Teaching of the word of God (feed my flock) has, for a very long time, become a reoccurring theme of religious propaganda (we are right, everyone else is wrong).

Some folks are actually starting to study the Bible for themselves - and what they are getting out of their studies is sometimes markedly different than the church dogma that is dished out every week, regardless of the organizational source. What is being demanded is that spiritual leaders start doing their assigned jobs of teaching and leading, not condemning and commanding.

The truth? Many of those in church leadership are there because they were called and ordained by men, not God. Their study of the word gets filtered through church dogma and man-made doctrines, so that the original word has become of no affect. Men and women are starting to use the resources for study that the internet provides to reexamine long held beliefs, to see if they are actually valid or not. What they are finding is that many doctrines were created by men who did not really know nor understand scripture, but interpreted it according to their own understanding and religious philosophies (1Tim 1:7). It is called 'indoctrination'. Personally I do like 'indoctrination', I long for fellowship (relationship) and sound teaching on how to improve that relationship with both God and man.

As a movement, we have never, well, almost never, moved beyond the doctrines a baptisms, the laying on of hands, etc (Heb 6:1-2). It is always the same old same old. The question remains unaddressed: Why? For the same old reason that has been used since the beginning of time: If you don't want people to think for themselves, keep repeating the same message to them over and over again. Tell them if they do not think your way and submit to your authority, they are evil and can not continue in your fellowship. Conform or be dammed. These are strong arguments and have worked for centuries.

People are starting, as the men of Berea, to ask hard questions. Questions are a danger to any establishment, religious or secular. So, another political movement is created and a new religious organization is started.

Communities such as this one allows those with questions, to ask - and to pole its members as to "what do you think, and why?" And, our religious leaders are having a hard time responding in a meaningful way. "Because I said so." is just not working any more.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

While it is has yet to catch on through out the entire body of Christ, there are many folks who are no longer content to sit back and listen every week the same old song and dance from the platforms.

I wonder if in the long run the internet does for the church what the printing press did. Namely give the power to the people to expose error.

Before the internet, unless you were able to write a book, you had no voice. No then through forums, blogs, youtube, etc. every teaching, denomination, and tradition under the sun is questioned. I believe that is a good thing, which though the water may be rough right now, hopefully the church in a couple generations (if the Lord tarries) will be better off and more united over it. Differences will probably always still exist, but perhaps we can tear down the walls that divide us over non essentials. Hopefully not only within the oneness movement, but amongst all of Christianity, while at the same time, with the help of God, maintianing the essentials. I believe God is able to help the church do this, but I don't believe He will force the church to do this. Sadly there are men who would rather be in charge of a denomination, call it the church, and exclude all others. We must repent of this party Spirit as a church if we will ever be able to truly be what God intends us to be.

The good news is revival comes to individuals not to denominations or organizations. And each person who comes to see that we are not the church of Christ on our own little island, as the original post points out, the closer we are to being the church God wants us to be. No doubt it will take time, but its not impossible.

God help us.