UPC - "Apostolic" Wesleyan Holiness Standards

[ThePastorsCoach]

This is what I have always understood and if the truth is different than this - can you give me historical documentation that what I have posted is NOT TRUE? I copied this from another thread I was posting on.

Most of the UPC and "Apostolic" "standards" come from the Wesleyan "Holiness" movement in the 1800's that did not even believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost or speaking in tongues or Baptism in Jesus Name. THEY WERE TRINITY!!! This is the origin of what you teach your people. You might need to pick up a book or two and research this!

Suzanna Wesley (a sick and depressed woman with many children) was the originator of most of these legalistic rules, regulations, yokes and bondages that you guys call "standards" and put on people!
You might need to remember that they were preaching these things before electricity, lights, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, automobiles, airplanes, space travel, and all the conveniences of modern life. If you are going to preach all the "standards" you do and send everyone else to hell for not living Wesleyan "standards" then you need to preach against modern conveniences like the Amish do. Get your ungodly buttons off your fancy store bought dresses and turn the radio off and get you a BUGGY to drive!

Now I said it - I will let you guys have at it.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is what I have always understood and if the truth is different than this - can you give me historical documentation that what I have posted is NOT TRUE? I copied this from another thread I was posting on.

Most of the UPC and "Apostolic" "standards" come from the Wesleyan "Holiness" movement in the 1800's that did not even believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost or speaking in tongues or Baptism in Jesus Name. THEY WERE TRINITY!!! This is the origin of what you teach your people. You might need to pick up a book or two and research this!

Suzanna Wesley (a sick and depressed woman with many children) was the originator of most of these legalistic rules, regulations, yokes and bondages that you guys call "standards" and put on people!
You might need to remember that they were preaching these things before electricity, lights, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, automobiles, airplanes, space travel, and all the conveniences of modern life. If you are going to preach all the "standards" you do and send everyone else to hell for not living Wesleyan "standards" then you need to preach against modern conveniences like the Amish do. Get your ungodly buttons off your fancy store bought dresses and turn the radio off and get you a BUGGY to drive!

Now I said it - I will let you guys have at it.

While there might be some truth behind the idea that Suzanna Wesley (indirectly through her son) was the orignator of legalistic rules, yokes and bondages....it certainly had nothing to do with cut or uncut hair.

John Wesley's Bible Commentary from centuries past recognized that Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 11 of custom for that time.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Newman

While there might be some truth behind the idea that Suzanna Wesley (indirectly through her son) was the orignator of legalistic rules, yokes and bondages....it certainly had nothing to do with cut or uncut hair.

John Wesley's Bible Commentary from centuries past recognized that Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 11 of custom for that time.

tsk tsk tsk.

AB never mentioned cut hair either.

Try again, please?

[Newman]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

tsk tsk tsk.

AB never mentioned cut hair either.

Try again, please?

Well, I think the issues of TV and pants on women probably weren't directives from Weslyn either. These 3 standards (hair, pants and TV) are more likely most closely assoicated with the organization (as opposed to other parts of the manual and unwritten rules).

In fact, we just more or less froze these "standards" from a particular period of time just like the Amish who got frozen a century (or two?) earlier. (Emma could fill us in).

[Neck]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

tsk tsk tsk.

AB never mentioned cut hair either.

Try again, please?

BOOMM, DO you preach that a woman should shave her head if she cuts it?

I would think standard preachers should take it all the way....

What doth hinder thee?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Newman

While there might be some truth behind the idea that Suzanna Wesley (indirectly through her son) was the orignator of legalistic rules, yokes and bondages....it certainly had nothing to do with cut or uncut hair.

John Wesley's Bible Commentary from centuries past recognized that Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 11 of custom for that time.

The Bible Methodists of today were an offshoot of the Wesleyans and still hold to a strong code of separation.

Probably no relevance...just sharing information...

[ThePastorsCoach]

Originally Posted by Barb

The Bible Methodists of today were an offshoot of the Wesleyans and still hold to a strong code of separation.

Probably no relevance...just sharing information...

This is true Barb and so was the organization I was born and raised in - The Church of God of Prophecy and the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and Pentecostal Holiness movements all came out of Wesleyan Holiness tradition. Most have dropped most of the "standards" but do recognize the history of the "holiness" movement and the Wesley's.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is true Barb and so was the organization I was born and raised in - The Church of God of Prophecy and the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and Pentecostal Holiness movements all came out of Wesleyan Holiness tradition. Most have dropped most of the "standards" but do recognize the history of the "holiness" movement and the Wesley's.

Some of the Bible Methodists I've come in contact with recently 'look' more Apostolic than some I go to church with, and that is a fact.

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is true Barb and so was the organization I was born and raised in - The Church of God of Prophecy and the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and Pentecostal Holiness movements all came out of Wesleyan Holiness tradition. Most have dropped most of the "standards" but do recognize the history of the "holiness" movement and the Wesley's.

My friend if you are going to be this bold than so am I.

What you are saying about the Apostolic Church and the standards of holiness are ALL lies.

You are asking for someone to prove different by scriptures and yet you have proven nothing to be expounded on with scriptures.

You are asking someone to do something that you are not willing to do.

Paul's teachings of ladies with UNCUT hair and men with CUT hair are a bit older than the 1800's.

So start producing truth and not accusations built upon gutless demands with no BIBLICAL truths.

I do apologize for such strong words but I refuse to let the "crusimatics" continue to challenge Biblical Holiness and separation from worldly, ungodly, and in-modest lifestyle thinking.

IMHO this is what the elders called stinking thinking, and the Bible calls false christ, deceivers of sound doctrine, and wolves in sheep's clothing

[Sam]

Below is a quote from "The Winds of God." This book was written by Ethel Goss and is about the early Pentecostal movement (1901-1914) in the life of her husband Howard A. Goss. The copyright date is 1958. At one time, maybe as early as 1958 or 1959 or maybe in the early sixties, I had a hard back copy of the book. I don't know what became of it. I recently got a paper back copy from Word Aflame Press. I have read that book at least twice but it may be as many as three or four times.

Howard Goss was, and is, considered a pioneer and a hero by quite a few people in the Pentecostal movement although many today would have no idea who he was.

In the early years of the Pentecostal movement a group of workers would go into an area and preach. They would go with no church invitation and no financial backing. They felt like they had a message to preach and that God would supply their needs. Their message was salvation, sanctification, healing, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was called the Apostolic Faith even though it had nothing to do with later teaching on Oneness and baptism in Jesus' Name. Later it would be referred to by some as Full Gospel. Some times they could afford a building to hold meetings in and some times even a separate place to stay. Finances and food came in by the grace of God.

On page 69 of the book he talks about the way they dressed which is in marked contrast to the way some of the preachers preach about standards, clothing, jewelry, etc today. Years ago we used to refer to this as "clothes line preaching." Now I guess it's just considered preaching on standards.

Here's the quote:

"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."