An Obama Presidency: What's At Stake

[deacon blues]

For those of you planning to vote for Obama for various reasons consider this: should he get elected he will definitely have the chance to nominate a Supreme Court Justice and maybe two. As a liberal he would most likely appoint justices that lean to the left.

The Supreme Court has just in the past two weeks ruled in favor of two horrible cases. They basically gave prisoners of war the same legal rights as American citizens. Terrorists, jihadists and Islamic fanatics are given the right to go to court even if they have killed and maimed many. Should they win their freedom, they could return with more death in their wake. The decision went 5-4. McCain will nominate strict constructionist judges.

The SC said this week that it unconstitutional to sentence to die someone who has raped children. Again the vote went 5-4.

There is too much at stake this election to vote because someone is an eloquent speaker.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

For those of you planning to vote for Obama for various reasons consider this: should he get elected he will definitely have the chance to nominate a Sipreme Court Justice and maybe two. As a liberal he would most likely appoint justices that lean o the left.

The Supreme Court has just in the past two weeks ruled in favor of two horrible cases. They basically gave prisoners of war the same legal rights as American citizens. Terrorists, jihadists and Islamic fanatics are given the right to go to court even if they have killed and mamed many. Should they win their freedom, they could return with more death in their wake. The decision went 5-4. McCain will nominate strict constructionist judges.

The SC said this week that it unconstitutional to sentence to die someone who has raped children. Again the vote went 5-4.

There is too much at stake this election to vote because someone is an eloquent speaker.

Exactly!

[SDG]

Although I am not happy with the first decision it's blanket statements like:

Terrorists just got the same legal rights as Americans ... that make these arguments against voting for the American senator seem hyperbolic and rooted in fallacy and illogic ...

The second decision ... I some problem with although they (enemy combatants/pow's0 were not GIVEN EQUAL RIGHTS WITH AMERICANS ... hello??? but rather a decision dealing with habeas corpus and the inability of a sitting Congress (legislative body) to deal with this issue when the Court gave it 3 years to do so.

Lastly ... our democracy NEVER meted out capital punishment for child rape ... until certain states sought to push the envelope ....

The act is reprehensible and disgusting but IMO should be punished with automatic life in prison ... a harsher and fairer form of retribution.

Wanting the Court to be more conservative is fine .... but that is not merely a fact that will rest on executive decision in our system of checks and balances

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Although I am not happy with the first decision it's blanket statements like:

Terrorists just got the same legal rights as Americans ... that make these arguments against voting for the American senator seem hyperbolic and rooted in fallacy and illogic ...

The second decision ... I some problem with although they (enemy combatants/pow's0 were not GIVEN EQUAL RIGHTS WITH AMERICANS ... hello??? but rather a decision dealing with habeas corpus and the inability of a sitting Congress (legislative body) to deal with this issue when the Court gave it 3 years to do so.

Lastly ... our democracy NEVER meted out capital punishment for child rape ... until certain states sought to push the envelope ....

The act is reprehensible and disgusting but IMO should be punished with automatic life in prison ... a harsher and fairer form of retribution.

Wanting the Court to be more conservative is fine .... but that is not merely a fact that will rest on executive decision in our system of checks and balances

Daniel, I love you man and respect you in many ways BUT this defending the indefensible is disturbing.

Terrorists DID get the same legal rights as Americans when the SC granted them the right to habeas corpus. The granting of habeas corpus rights to terrorists and enemy combatants is UNPRECEDENTED and returns the war on terror back to where Cllinton was trying to fight it: as a criminal action. With the first Twin Towers attack, USS Cole, Khobar Towers, Kenyan Embassy, Tanzanian Embassy, Somalia debacle, and others we can well remember how well that effort worked.

Granting HC to terrorists sounds noble on paper and in theory, but it doesn't and won't work to win this war on terrorism. It assumes that the enemy combatants and terrorists are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Can you imagine fighting WWII or any other war in our history under that assumption? It worls for American citizens but it won't work in this context.

As far as Congress doing nothing with it, it's your party that had the chance to do something with it, and sat on it. They are in favor of the courts ruling. Otherwise they would have been on the fast track trying to assure that this would not happen. Besides when did an act of Congress stop the SC from writing their own legislation?

Let's talk a little about the child rape/capital punishment decision. It is unchartered waters for us as a society b/c we have not had this problem on such a large scale as we do today. It was a rare occurence in generations past. Today the child predators number in the millions. Something must be done to put a severe consequnce to these sickos actions. Life in prison? I know that I would want the man or woman who violates my young children taken from this world for such a disgusting and terribly life altering act. No child rapist should be permitted to live period. That's not pushing the envelope, thats justice.

Wanting the court to be more conservative most certinaly rests on the executive branch. Your saying it isn't, bro, betrays what seems to be a blind willingness to vote for Obama not matter what.

Still love you though.

[Rico]

I don't think McCain would appoint truly conservative justices anyway. This is a guy who was considered anything but a conservative by his own party until he managed to win this nomination. At best I think all you would get from him are moderate justices, and I am not so sure we wouldn't get the same from Obama. He's been in agreement with y'all on both the child rapist ruling and the gun control ruling.

[SDG]

DB,

1. I am a conservative/libertarian Republican who will be voting for Obama.

2. We as a nation have a responsibility to keep higher standards than the animals who seek to hurt us ... we have been dealing as a nation w/ the fine line between the civil liberties, upholding the dignity of all human beings and our national security. This has taken a delicate balancing act ... and the Court, our Congress and President have done what they all have seen as necessary to keep this in "check" while still protecting our survival and integrity.

I have no problem w/ our long track record of treating POW's and ... ( now ... this convenient term "enemy combatants" while fighting the war on Terror) with some higher standards that have made us the greatest nation in human history.

Are there concerns I have about this detainee decision ... sure ...

but is this decision a liberal vs. conservative issue?? ... I'm not sure DB.

It's your claim that somehow we are reaching an apocalyptic climax when we choose our next President that is alienating many who just don't see it quite that way ... and make this race more about partisanship rather than common sense ...

As a staunch political conservative I have always been in favor of capital punishment ... a life for a life.

I am even in favor of making capital punishment ... automatic ... if a child is raped and then murdered ...

However, even you admittedly say that this notion of executing child rapists is indeed pushing the envelope because you ... like I ... are sickened by the heinous nature of this act ...

But when did this become a "conservative" issue? That's where I get lost, DB.

Do I cease being a conservative if I believe that the punishment must meet the crime?

Remember the Duke Lacrosse team ???... what if hypothetically this group of 19-21 year old males had indeed raped a 17 year old minor ...????

Do you really believe they need to be executed for committing this atrocity?

Something in my gut tells me that this is not type of retribution that our ideologues have argued for when defending capital punishment. My gut tells me that you ... nor I think that these hypothetical 19 year olds would be deserving of this punishment.

Where do we draw the line with what we think is deserving of capital punishment or heightening our punishments for growing problems??? ... do we regress and start chopping off the hands of those that are habitually shoplifting since it's a growing epidemic and affects us all?

The Supreme Court has a responsibility ... no matter who appointed them ... or the political mood of the country ... to uphold the sanctity of the Constitution ...

In this last decision about capital punishment they have kept precedent with what has been the law of the land and decided on caution when it comes to the issue of cruel and unusual punishment.

Not wanting Obama as President is your right ... but using these recent decisions as examples or reasons not to vote for him is IMO .... is wanting at best since they are not necessarily conservative issues.

BTW, thanx for loving me ... I love you too, bro ... even if you're voting for a flip-flopper

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

DB,

1. I am a conservative/libertarian Republican who will be voting for Obama.

We know, we know.

2. We as a nation have a responsibility to keep higher standards than the animals who seek to hurt us ... we have been dealing as a nation w/ the fine line between the civil liberties, upholding the dignity of all human beings and our national security. This has taken a delicate balancing act ... and the Court, our Congress and President have done what they all have seen as necessary to keep this in "check" while still protecting our survival and integrity.

I have no problem w/ our long track record of treating POW's and ... ( now ... this convenient term "enemy combatants" while fighting the war on Terror) with some higher standards that have made us the greatest nation in human history.

Have American military personel conducted themselves in a way that we should all be proud? Not all, most, but not all. Your talk of precendence for the child rape case goes ignored on this issue b/c we have NEVER in our history given POW's habeas corpus rights. We have always tried them with military tribunals.

We were the greatest nation on earth during the Nuremburg Trials and we prosecuted those war criminals with a military tribunal. Why all of the sudden do we change course and bequeath to these terrorists something we wouldn't even give to the Nazis?

Are there concerns I have about this detainee decision ... sure ...
but is this decision a liberal vs. conservative issue?? ... I'm not sure DB.

This is absolutely a conservate/liberal issue. The justices that voted for habeas corpus were all LIBERAL justices with the exception of Kennedy who could go either way. All that dissented were CONSERVATIVE justices.

It's your claim that somehow we are reaching an apocalyptic climax when we choose our next President that is alienating many who just don't see it quite that way ... and make this race more about partisanship rather than common sense ...

Dan if you don't recognize that there is evil at work in the culture wars, you good friend are enraptured with the pied piper's music and missing the point. It may not usher in the apocalypse, but enough can be eroded in four to eight years that in many ways our nation will never recover or take generations to undo.

How many tens of millions of babies must be aborted before we realize that who we vote for matters for the defenseless? How many laws passed or judicial decisions be reached before our Constitution is undermined beyond repair? Don't the past 50 years of history show how important presidential elections are to the future of the country? Eight years of undermining the military and intelligence services under Clinton was enough to bring us 9/11. And he was considered a moderate Democrat!

What will four to eight years of a true liberal like Obama bring us? Maybe not the apocalypse, but very grave consequences IMO.

As a staunch political conservative I have always been in favor of capital punishment ... a life for a life.

I am even in favor of making capital punishment ... automatic ... if a child is raped and then murdered ...

I believe the capital punishment for the rape of a child did not include older teens being raped by young adults. I believe the laws were narrowed to younger aged children. You don't think its justified to execute a grown man raping an infant or a 3 year old or 10 year old or 14 year old? A life for a life? I don't see that their lives are equally valuable at that point. When that man or woman crossed the line of such egregious perversity they just devalued their own life far below that of the precious innocent child.

I am sure that parameters were or could be inserted in to the law to make the execution limited in certain instances. I don't know how the LA law was written, but if Scalia, Roberts, Thomas and Alito felt like it was a good law, thats good wnough for me.

However, even you admittedly say that this notion of executing child rapists is indeed pushing the envelope because you ... like I ... are sickened by the heinous nature of this act ...

I don't recall calling this law "pushing the envelope". I was quoting you.

But when did this become a "conservative" issue? That's where I get lost, DB.

Do I cease being a conservative if I believe that the punishment must meet the crime?

I believe you cease being a conservative when you want to provide habeas corpus to terrorists to protect their fundamental rights to a jury trial versus a military tribunal but you want to protect a convicted child repaist from lethal injection? Don't you see the flawed logic in all of this?

Not wanting Obama as President is your right ... but using these recent decisions as examples or reasons not to vote for him is IMO .... is wanting at best since they are not necessarily conservative issues.

BTW, thanx for loving me ... I love you too, bro ... even if you're voting for a flip-flopper

So tell me Dan, what are the compelling reasons to vote for Obama? I am eager to here your rationale as a true conservative who has decided to vote for one of the most liberal candidates in history.

[vrblackwell]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

DB,

1. I am a conservative/libertarian Republican who will be voting for Obama.

2. We as a nation have a responsibility to keep higher standards than the animals who seek to hurt us ... we have been dealing as a nation w/ the fine line between the civil liberties, upholding the dignity of all human beings and our national security. This has taken a delicate balancing act ... and the Court, our Congress and President have done what they all have seen as necessary to keep this in "check" while still protecting our survival and integrity.

I have no problem w/ our long track record of treating POW's and ... ( now ... this convenient term "enemy combatants" while fighting the war on Terror) with some higher standards that have made us the greatest nation in human history.

Are there concerns I have about this detainee decision ... sure ...

but is this decision a liberal vs. conservative issue?? ... I'm not sure DB.

It's your claim that somehow we are reaching an apocalyptic climax when we choose our next President that is alienating many who just don't see it quite that way ... and make this race more about partisanship rather than common sense ...

As a staunch political conservative I have always been in favor of capital punishment ... a life for a life.

I am even in favor of making capital punishment ... automatic ... if a child is raped and then murdered ...

However, even you admittedly say that this notion of executing child rapists is indeed pushing the envelope because you ... like I ... are sickened by the heinous nature of this act ...

But when did this become a "conservative" issue? That's where I get lost, DB.

Do I cease being a conservative if I believe that the punishment must meet the crime?

Remember the Duke Lacrosse team ???... what if hypothetically this group of 19-21 year old males had indeed raped a 17 year old minor ...????

Do you really believe they need to be executed for committing this atrocity?

Something in my gut tells me that this is not type of retribution that our ideologues have argued for when defending capital punishment. My gut tells me that you ... nor I think that these hypothetical 19 year olds would be deserving of this punishment.

Where do we draw the line with what we think is deserving of capital punishment or heightening our punishments for growing problems??? ... do we regress and start chopping off the hands of those that are habitually shoplifting since it's a growing epidemic and affects us all?

The Supreme Court has a responsibility ... no matter who appointed them ... or the political mood of the country ... to uphold the sanctity of the Constitution ...

In this last decision about capital punishment they have kept precedent with what has been the law of the land and decided on caution when it comes to the issue of cruel and unusual punishment.

Not wanting Obama as President is your right ... but using these recent decisions as examples or reasons not to vote for him is IMO .... is wanting at best since they are not necessarily conservative issues.

BTW, thanx for loving me ... I love you too, bro ... even if you're voting for a flip-flopper

That disappoints me Danial. I have said it before and I will say it again. Those who vote for politicians who support funding of abortion is taking part in that sin and in no way reflects Christ. It would be better that a millstone be put around their neck and cast into the sea.

Not only does Obama support abortion, he support the hideous act of partial birth abortion. A vote for him is a vote to take part in those murders.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

DB,

I have no problem w/ our long track record of treating POW's and ... ( now ... this convenient term "enemy combatants" while fighting the war on Terror) with some higher standards that have made us the greatest nation in human history.

The distinction is critical. A POW is a prisoner when there is a war against a specific country. We are not at war with a country so the distinction between a POW and an enemy combatant is a necessary distinction. An enemy combatant doesn't qualify for Geneva convention protections.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Remember the Duke Lacrosse team ???... what if hypothetically this group of 19-21 year old males had indeed raped a 17 year old minor ...????

Do you really believe they need to be executed for committing this atrocity?

Terrible example, the law stated the child had to be under the age of 12. These were not cases of statutory rape where one might be mistaken about an individuals age.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

The distinction is critical. A POW is a prisoner when there is a war against a specific country. We are not at war with a country so the distinction between a POW and an enemy combatant is a necessary distinction. An enemy combatant doesn't qualify for Geneva convention protections.

I am very aware of the distinctions,bro. It is a convenient distinction, IMO. Especially when everyone and their mother knows we're fighting an undeclared war on terror and people in a specific region - Afghanistan/Iraq.

My point again ... was that I do have some issues w/ this decision ... which I stated before ... however it is the tone and intent of the first post thread that categorically said Terrorists have the same legal rights as Americans and therefore somehow a vote for Obama is a vote that tilts the Court to anarchy ... an apocalyptic catastrophe.

I have pointed out that it dealt w/ due process and habeas corpus ... which has been an issue even in the Civil War.

We could debate the finer aspects of it ... however each body of our gov't has sought to bring checks and balances in an issue that is new to us ... while still keeping the integrity we have continued to show the world that we are a cut above.

Terrible example, the law stated the child had to be under the age of 12. These were not cases of statutory rape where one might be mistaken about an individuals age.

My example was not to again to discuss the finer aspects of the specific law in question but once again ... this notion that if I am a conservative I have to disagree w/ this decision ... I'm sorry but I won't ...

I gave that example in response to DB stating:

Life in prison? I know that I would want the man or woman who violates my young children taken from this world for such a disgusting and terribly life altering act. No child rapist should be permitted to live period. That's not pushing the envelope, thats justice.

It's statements like these that are making those who are supporting McCain just on his party affiliation seem extreme when we all know he's held multiple positions and multiple issues .... including for abortions, Verlon. All the while making Obama ... McCain's foil ....
when you and I both know that's not accurate based on McCain's fluid track record. Do we even know if McCain is a conservative? Geez, Louise.

Statements like a vote for Obama is a vote for partial birth abortions... or even better ... murder and "not reflecting Christ".... is just the tip of the iceberg of the nonsense rhetoric being spewed in the name of a man who has proven to waffle on issues, especially moral ones, important to all of us in the conservative camp.

Later on in this thread even DB conceded that some child rapists should live based on various situations.

I still uphold the notion as a libertarian at heart that the punishment does not fit the crime and I do not have to gravitate toward fascism to keep my conservative label to do so.

If my views have done anything in this thread at least the author of it no longer believes all child rapists should die and wants exceptions to the rule based on ages of the offenders and offendees..... even if they are adults or legally children... *wink*

And conversely ... now believes if some child rapists live that's justice.

I refuse to let talk radio and my party card/koolaid formulate my opinions, talking points or decisions.
In this thread I vote for common sense over hyperbole.

Lastly DB .... I don't lose my conservative label if I believe in due process even for the least of these or refuse to execute someone who I believe will receive a fairer form of retribution with an appropriate yet harsh sentence. It sounded cute, however.

Keeping in mind that I'm willing to personally execute any sexual offender who commits this offense followed by murdering the victim. Conservative enough?