Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:14 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
Saved by Grace


 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
You've Got To Read This!!!

I was searching for another apostolic forum, and this was one of the first things that came up. It is a catholic forum discussing oneness. Really funny stuff, and of course some insults:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=130517

a couple of things that caught my eye:
-"There is pretty much no theology with this group."
-"They tend to be hostile to philosophy and to claim that they are simply following the Bible (big surprise!). They see the Trinity as a philosophical corruption of Christianity."
-"Jesus praying to Himself? Thats so absurd I cant wait to see how they defend that one."
-"My mom and uncle have both been to their services and both said they had to politely get up and leave before they rudely started laughing. Their service is the complete opposite of the Catholic Mass."

wow, i am enlightened. somebody find me a statue!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:31 PM
missdkendall's Avatar
missdkendall missdkendall is offline
"Mercy Walked In"


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 632
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I was searching for another apostolic forum, and this was one of the first things that came up. It is a catholic forum discussing oneness. Really funny stuff, and of course some insults:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=130517

a couple of things that caught my eye:
-"There is pretty much no theology with this group."
-"They tend to be hostile to philosophy and to claim that they are simply following the Bible (big surprise!). They see the Trinity as a philosophical corruption of Christianity."
-"Jesus praying to Himself? Thats so absurd I cant wait to see how they defend that one."
-"My mom and uncle have both been to their services and both said they had to politely get up and leave before they rudely started laughing. Their service is the complete opposite of the Catholic Mass."

wow, i am enlightened. somebody find me a statue!
Thank the LORD!!!! I'd fall asleep or pass out in a Catholic Mass.
__________________
www.firstpt.org
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:38 PM
deltaguitar's Avatar
deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Flower Mound, Tx
Posts: 2,791
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Actually if you are UPC you probably have a lot in common with the Catholic's works based salvation.

Here is a Catholic vs. Protestant test you can take. See how you score. I scored a perfect 100% protestant but my pastor who only scored 90%.

http://www.inchristalone.org/CathOrProt.html
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:53 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Actually if you are UPC you probably have a lot in common with the Catholic's works based salvation.

Here is a Catholic vs. Protestant test you can take. See how you score. I scored a perfect 100% protestant but my pastor who only scored 90%.

http://www.inchristalone.org/CathOrProt.html
Even Luther believed baptism was essential....him being a protestant....interesting eh?

And to say UPCers have a lot in common with catholics is absurd when you consider the works of the catholic involve regular eating of the host and drinking of the wine in order to be saved...pleading to Mary to pray to jesus for their souls. Come on....this sounds really more like another in a long line of cheap shots.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:00 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
Saved by Grace


 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Actually if you are UPC you probably have a lot in common with the Catholic's works based salvation.

Here is a Catholic vs. Protestant test you can take. See how you score. I scored a perfect 100% protestant but my pastor who only scored 90%.

http://www.inchristalone.org/CathOrProt.html
delta,
I am UPC, your statements make no sense. I understand why you say it, but that is as bad information as is on the catholic forum. I am UPC, i believe that God's love, the Blood of Christ, gracy, mery, faith, and belief are all needed for salvation-but none of these is salvation, they simply pave the way, and make it possible for salvation. Without these we cannot be saved. When these things work in our lives, we should follow Jesus command to repent (Lk 13:3), and be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5), Jesus commands are fulfilled in obeying Acts 2:38. Then one is born again, then the process of holiness,sanctification begins-but that is post salvation. I know you don't think baptism is needed, but don't accuse me of being 90% catholic because I am UPC. Also, I know these things are discussed elsewhere on this forum, so please don't hi-jack this thread. You have very valuable opinions, that I respect, but disagree with.
The point of this thread was how unaccurately we are percieved by these catholics, who spoke as though the had some knowledge of us.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:01 PM
Hoovie's Avatar
Hoovie Hoovie is offline
Supercalifragilisticexpiali...


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Actually if you are UPC you probably have a lot in common with the Catholic's works based salvation.
Here is a Catholic vs. Protestant test you can take. See how you score. I scored a perfect 100% protestant but my pastor who only scored 90%.

http://www.inchristalone.org/CathOrProt.html
NOT.

I got 100% but I will say, some of those questions need further and better clarification. see #9 for example.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-2008, 11:11 PM
izzyschwartz's Avatar
izzyschwartz izzyschwartz is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North America, to be specific
Posts: 52
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Actually if you are UPC you probably have a lot in common with the Catholic's works based salvation.
The stupidity of and behind this comment is only exceeded by the stupidity of and behind this comment!

By the way, "works" as you put it, are a very necessary step in the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. In case you do not realize it, faith itself can be considered a work. The New Testament plan requires obedience and action. You Protestants should know this...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:10 PM
dizzyde's Avatar
dizzyde dizzyde is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,408
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzyschwartz View Post
The stupidity of and behind this comment is only exceeded by the stupidity of and behind this comment!

By the way, "works" as you put it, are a very necessary step in the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. In case you do not realize it, faith itself can be considered a work. The New Testament plan requires obedience and action. You Protestants should know this...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:33 PM
deltaguitar's Avatar
deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Flower Mound, Tx
Posts: 2,791
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Here is an article showing some Catholic beliefs regarding baptism. I was very suprised when I read this and noticed that the beliefs are very similar to the UPC's doctrine.


From chapter nine of Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics, by Ron Rhodes, (Eugene Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 2000), pp. 162-170

The Roman Catholic Teaching: In Acts 2:38 we read, "And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:" Roman Catholics argue that this verse supports the necessity of baptism for salvation. Indeed, Ludwig Ott, citing this verse, tells us that "baptism has the power both of eradicating sin and of effecting inner sanctification."25

Response: Admittedly, this is not an easy verse to interpret. But a basic principle of Bible interpretation is that difficult passages are to be interpreted in light of the easy, clear verses. We should never build a theology on difficult passages.

As a backdrop, the great majority of passages dealing with salvation in the New Testament affirm that salvation is by faith alone. A good example is John 3:16,17 (NIV): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Even Peter, who is the one who uttered the words in Acts 2:38, elsewhere acknowledges that a person is saved prior to baptism. For example, in Acts 10:47 we read Peter's words, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Salvation came first for these people (as evidenced in their possession of the Holy Spirit), and baptism followed.

How, then, are we to understand Acts 2:38? A single word in the verse gives us the answer. The verse reads, "Peter replied, `Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"' (NIV, emphasis added).

Students of the Greek language have often pointed out that the Greek word for (eis) is a preposition that can indicate causality ("in order to attain") or a result ("because of"). An example of using for in a resultant sense is the sentence, "I'm taking an aspirin for my headache:' Obviously, this means I am taking an aspirin as a result of my headache. I am not taking an aspirin in order to attain a headache.

An example of using for in a causal sense is the sentence, "I’m going to the office for my paycheck." Obviously, this means I am going to the office in order to attain my paycheck.

In Acts 2:38 the word for is used in a resultant sense. The verse might be paraphrased, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of (or as a result of) the remission of sins." The verse is not saying "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in order to attain the remission of sins."

Properly interpreted, then, this verse indicates that water baptism follows the salvation experience, not causes the salvation experience.



The Roman Catholic Teaching: In John 3:5 we read the words of Jesus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Roman Catholics interpret this as meaning that baptism is required for salvation. Indeed, baptism is said to confer the grace of justification?26 "The universal necessity of this `rebirth' through Baptism is emphasized by Our Lord: `Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God' (John 3:5)."27 Indeed, "Baptism, the door to life and to the kingdom of God, is the first sacrament of the New Law offered by Christ to all men that they might have eternal life (John 3:5)."28

Response: I begin with the observation that there are so many verses in John's Gospel that indicate belief in Christ as the sole condition for salvation that John would have to have been dishonest if in fact both belief in Christ and baptism were necessary for salvation (see John 5:24; 6:35; 7:38; 8:24; 9:35; 10:38; 11:26; 12:44-48; 20:31). However John 3:5 is interpreted, it must be in keeping with all these other verses.

Critical to a proper understanding of John 3:1-5 is verse 6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit:' Flesh can only reproduce itself as flesh, and flesh cannot pass muster with God (see Romans 8:8). The law of reproduction is "after its kind" (see Genesis 1). So, likewise, the Spirit produces spirit.

In Nicodemus' case, we find a Pharisee who would have been trusting in his physical descent from Abraham for entrance into the Messiah's kingdom. The Jews believed that because they were physically related to Abraham, they were in a specially privileged position before God. Christ, however, denied such a possibility. Parents can transmit to their children only the nature that they themselves possess. Since each parent's nature, because of Adam's sin, is sinful, each parent transmits a sinful nature to the child. And what is sinful cannot enter the kingdom of God (verse 5). The only way someone can enter God's kingdom is to experience a spiritual rebirth, and this is precisely what Jesus is emphasizing to Nicodemus.

The problem is, Nicodemus did not initially comprehend Jesus' meaning. Nicodemus wrongly concluded that Jesus was speaking of something related to physical birth, but could not understand how a person could go through physical birth a second time (John 3:4). Jesus picked up on Nicodemus' line of thought and sought to move the argument from physical birth to spiritual birth.

Notice how Jesus went about His explanation to Nicodemus. He first speaks about being "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5, and then explains what He means by this in verse 6. It would seem that "born of water" in verse 5 is parallel to "born of the flesh" in verse 6, just as "born of...the Spirit" in verse 5 is parallel to "born of the Spirit" in verse 6. Jesus' message, then, is that just as each person has had a physical birth to live on earth, so he or she roust also have a spiritual birth in order to enter the spiritual kingdom of God. A person must be "born from above:' Seen in this light, this verse has nothing whatsoever to do with water baptism.

I should note that the fact that some of the early church fathers believed this verse referred to baptism is not decisive for us. Indeed, the fathers were finite and fallible human beings. Only the Bible is infallible. Further, the fathers often offered mistaken and conflicting interpretations of the same verse. Hence, there is no consensus among the fathers on many issues. This being the case, the fathers cannot be cited as some infallible indicator of what the correct interpretation must be.

The Roman Catholic Teaching: In Mark 16:16 we read, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Roman Catholics teach that in this verse Jesus is saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. We are told that "through Baptism as through a door men enter the Church."29

Response: Notice the latter part of the verse: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned" (Mark 15:16, emphasis added). It is unbelief that brings ************ation not a lack of being baptized. When someone rejects the Gospel, refusing to believe it, that person is ************ed.

In regard to the question of whether baptism is necessary for salvation, consider the words of the apostle Paul: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:17 NIV). Paul here draws a clear distinction between baptism aid the gospel. And since it is the gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1,2), baptism is clearly not necessary to attain salvation.

That is not to say that baptism is unimportant. Baptism should be the first act of obedience to God following a person's conversion to Christ. But even though we should obey God and get baptized, we must not forget flat our faith in Christ is what saves us (Acts 16:31; John 3:10, not baptism. Baptism is basically a public profession of faith. It says to the whole world, "I'm a believer in Christ Wd have identified my life with Him:'
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:34 PM
deltaguitar's Avatar
deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Flower Mound, Tx
Posts: 2,791
Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

The Roman Catholic Teaching: In Titus 3:5 we read, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." This verse is interpreted as meaning that baptism leads to regeneration. "It is through baptism that this regeneration takes place; hence Paul calls this Sacrament `the bath of regeneration' (Tit. 3:5)."30

Response: The Greek word for baptism (baptidzo) is not used in this verse. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism. Paul refers to "washing of regeneration" (Greek: loutrou) to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation.

The fact that this is a "washing of regeneration" indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God's mercy.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Must Read! NLYP Fellowship Hall 10 08-30-2007 11:15 PM
Did you read? TK Burk Fellowship Hall 9 08-23-2007 09:04 AM
Please read Sister Alvear Fellowship Hall 4 08-22-2007 08:09 PM
I've never read anything like this.... berkeley Fellowship Hall 0 06-26-2007 09:18 AM
A New Read Kutless Fellowship Hall 2 03-21-2007 11:19 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by jfrog
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.