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Old 02-22-2008, 12:01 PM
Jehoram Jehoram is offline
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Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossils

Please explain the existence of dinasour fossils and how it relates to Judeo-Christian values.
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:07 PM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

They lived and they died a long time ago, and they turned to fossils.

lol

It's all speculation, but you could either go with the thought that they lived concurrent to man at some point and then died out for whatever reason...maybe having to do with the Flood....but...that poses a bit of a problem because it seems there'd have been dinos on the ark in order to go in keeping with their being pairs of everything aboard....and I dunno if the ark would hold all the dinos...lol

Or you could take the days of creation as many years of time each, such as the day = a thousand years thought.... And say that the dinos died out before man was created....

That is a bit hard to explain the carnivorous nature many of the dinos were believed to have had because carnivorous nature didn't exist until after the Fall....



Or, you could ask somebody like CC1, I think he was there when it happened.
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:14 PM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

I've taken this excerpt from an article I remember reading several months ago. The link is at the bottom so you can read it all if you'd like. I thought this might add to the discussion.

------
The Bible refers to many the common animals we know today. The list includes lions, wolves, bears, sheep, cattle and dogs along with various kinds of birds, rodents, reptiles, and insects. What is interesting is that this extensive list includes three animals that we no longer recognize. These three are (in the original Hebrew language) tanniyn, b@hemowth (yes, it’s spelled correctly—at least as close as we can get in Roman characters), and livyathan.

Although we alter the spelling of behemoth and Leviathan slightly, we still use those same words in bibles today. However, tanniyn is always translated into another word when we write it in English. Tanniyn occurs 28 times in the Bible and is normally translated “dragon.” It is also translated “serpent,” “sea monster,” “dinosaur,” “great creature,” and “reptile.” Behemoth and Leviathan are relatively specific creatures, perhaps each was a single kind of animal. Tanniyn is a more general term, and it can be thought of as the original version of the word “dinosaur.” The word “dinosaur” was originally coined in 1841, more than three thousand years after the Bible first referred to “Tanniyn.” To make things clearer, we constructed the following table comparing the scientific names with the Biblical names tanniyn, behemoth, and Leviathan.

Reading the Bible carefully, you will realize that no living creature matches the descriptions of behemoth and Leviathan. However, if you grab your kid’s dinosaur book, you will notice several possible matches for each one. Let’s examine those.

Behemoth has the following attributes according to Job 40:15-24


It “eats grass like an ox.”
It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)
Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.”
“He is the first of the ways of God.”
“He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.”
Some bibles and study bibles will translate the word “behemoth” as “elephant” or “hippopotamus.” Others will put a note at the edge or bottom of the page, stating that behemoth was probably an elephant or a hippopotamus. Although an elephant or hippopotamus can eat grass (or lie in a covert of reeds and marsh), neither an elephant or a hippopotamus has a “tail like a cedar” (that is, a tail like a large, tapered tree trunk). In your kid’s dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.”

We would expect behemoth to be a large land animal whose bones are like beams of bronze and so forth, so whatever a behemoth is, it is large. A key phrase is “He is the first of the ways of God.” This phrase in the original Hebrew implied that behemoth was the biggest animal created. Although an elephant or a hippopotamus are big, they are less than one-tenth the size of a Brachiosaurus, the largest (complete) dinosaur ever discovered.[1] A Brachiosaurus could therefore easily be described as “the first of the ways of God.”

Comparing all this information to the description in your kid’s dinosaur book, you may come to the conclusion that “behemoth” is not a normal animal, it is a dinosaur—the brachiosaurus. We agree with that conclusion!

Note: Some paleontologists have found fragmentary leg bones, ribs, or vertebrae which they propose belong to “new” sauropods larger than Brachiosaurus. Examples of these include Amphicoelias, Argentinasaurus, Sauroposeidon, Seismosaurus, Supersaurus and Ultrasaurus. There currently is not enough evidence to really determine the size of any of these, and some paleontologists believe that they are merely large examples of known dinosaurs like Brachiosaurus or Diplodocus. In any case, only the “modern scientific name” of behemoth would change. The point would still remain that behemoth refers to a dinosaur, not a “modern animal” like an elephant or hippopotamus.
Leviathan has the following attributes according to Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1. This is only a partial listing—just enough to make the point.


“No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.”
“Who can open the doors of his face, with his terrible teeth all around?”
“His rows of scales are his pride, shut up tightly as with a seal; one is so near another that no air can come between them; they are joined one to another, they stick together and cannot be parted.”
“His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”
“Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; he laughs at the threat of javelins.”
“On earth there is nothing like him, which is made without fear.”
Leviathan “played” in the “great and wide sea” (a paraphrase of Psalm 104 verses 25 and 26—get the exact sense by reading them yourself).
Leviathan is a “reptile [a] that is in the sea.” (Isaiah 27:1)
[a] Note: The word translated “reptile” here is the Hebrew word tanniyn. This shows that “Leviathan” was also a “tanniyn” (dragon).

Unlike behemoth, who is huge, Leviathan is ferocious and terrifying. Many references (we have not listed them all) refer to the sea, so Leviathan is probably a sea creature. Although some bibles refer to Leviathan as an alligator or crocodile (and both of these are fierce) neither of these is a sea creature. They like the water, but they spend much of their time on land. Further, the question “Who can open the doors of his face. . . .” implies that nobody can open Leviathan’s jaws. Although an alligator's jaws cannot normally be forced open, a punch to their sensitive snout or poke in eye might startle them enough to release their grip.[2] Although this is a good description of an alligator characteristic, it does not fit perfectly with the description of Leviathan, which in the context of the Bible was supposed to describe an essentially impossible event, and we are not done yet.

The description of the scales is interesting. Several verses describe these great scales. Compared to Leviathan’s armor, iron is like straw and arrows ca not make it flee. Let’s face it, an arrow can do a lot of damage to a crocodile or alligator. This is not a description of either of them—or any living animal we are aware of.

And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal like that in today’s world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle can do it, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don’t you agree?

Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)
Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?” We believe it does.
Comparing all this information to the description in your kid’s dinosaur book, you may come up with the conclusion that Leviathan is a kronosaurus. We have heard (and read) other suggestions, but the kronosaurus is the best match of any known creature to the description of Leviathan.

More here, if you'd like to read it
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

Job also mentions the behemoth with a tail like a cedar tree.......sounds like a dinosaur to me. Still doesn't negate the Gospel, even if a alien is in a backpack harness on a bigfoot, riding the lochness monster.......
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

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Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Job also mentions the behemoth with a tail like a cedar tree.......sounds like a dinosaur to me. Still doesn't negate the Gospel, even if a alien is in a backpack harness on a bigfoot, riding the lochness monster.......
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Old 02-22-2008, 05:59 PM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

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Originally Posted by chseeads View Post

That is a bit hard to explain the carnivorous nature many of the dinos were believed to have had because carnivorous nature didn't exist until after the Fall...
Here's an interesting question I've had. Why do we think all creatures were immortal and weren't carnivorous before the fall?

I've always read about how Romans states,

"12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" - Romans 5:12

But the context reads,

"11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." - Romans 5:11-15

The subject appears to be more than just physical death, but rather the spiritual death which passed upon all men through transgression and the salvation found in Christ.

I've heard Creationists propose that maybe the atmospheric conditions lent themselves to allowing for eternal life or long ages. But I don't see that explicitly taught in Scripture.

I do see something very interesting though....when God wanted to ensure that Adam would not live forever we see what He did,

"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." - Genesis 3:22-24

God removed Adam from the garden to prevent him from partaking of the Tree of Life and thereby, live forever. It appears that Adam's longevity and eternal life was predicated upon his access to this tree.

In regards to animals and the proposition that they were immortal and vegetarian, how could this be? Did every animal also have access to the tree of life?

Is it possible that nature outside of the garden and away from the influence of the Tree of Life was quite different from the peaceful eternal existence within the garden?

Just a few questions I've always had. Some of you theologians can share your insights, I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

God bless.
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:26 PM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
Here's an interesting question I've had. Why do we think all creatures were immortal and weren't carnivorous before the fall?

Dunno about the immortal part...

But I take it that God made the herb and fruit of the ground as meat for man and beast to start out with...

Hence the Scriptures that talk about the lion lying with the lamb, and the cow and the bear and the lion eating straw like an ox....restored back to original vegetarian state.
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:49 PM
OP_Carl OP_Carl is offline
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

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Originally Posted by chseeads View Post
Dunno about the immortal part...

But I take it that God made the herb and fruit of the ground as meat for man and beast to start out with...

Hence the Scriptures that talk about the lion lying with the lamb, and the cow and the bear and the lion eating straw like an ox....restored back to original vegetarian state.
And, as reminded by your tag line, they were ALL NEKKID too ! ! ! !


(good thing there weren't any thorns or briars, huh?)
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:51 PM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

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Originally Posted by OP_Carl View Post
And, as reminded by your tag line, they were ALL NEKKID too ! ! ! !


(good thing there weren't any thorns or briars, huh?)

Indeed....it all fits together when you start to think about it...LOL
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:29 AM
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Re: Please Explain the Existence of Dinasour Fossi

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Dunno about the immortal part...

But I take it that God made the herb and fruit of the ground as meat for man and beast to start out with...

Hence the Scriptures that talk about the lion lying with the lamb, and the cow and the bear and the lion eating straw like an ox....restored back to original vegetarian state.
If one takes that literally it might give that implication.

"24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD." ~ Isaiah 65:24-25

I think it may be speaking of God's presence among men, world peace, and the defeat of Satan.

Just a thought.

God bless.
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