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08-15-2012, 01:14 PM
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Church Ownership
Who owns the local church?
The people? The board? The denomination? The pastor?
I ask because there is a train of thought that asks people who disagree with the pastor to leave the church.
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I'm (sic) not cynical, I just haven't been around long enough to be Jedi mind-tricked by politics as usual. Alas, maybe in a few years I'll be beaten back into the herd. tstew
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08-15-2012, 01:16 PM
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Administrator
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Re: Church Ownership
Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.
What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?
I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, for what purpose?
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
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08-15-2012, 01:19 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AZ
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.
What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?
I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, for what purpose?
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I am pretty sure he is asking who owns the building and physical assets. The answer to that is whatever the name of the non-profit entity is.
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08-15-2012, 01:20 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.
What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?
I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, why and for what purpose?
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The pastor has no authority outside of God's Word. He has no right to teach personal preferences. I would consider removing the pastor if he was teaching preferences.
Individuals and families invest thousands of dollars and decades of their lives into a local church only to have a new pastor move in with a wild hair.
It's not right to ask them to leave just because he goes off his rocker.
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I'm (sic) not cynical, I just haven't been around long enough to be Jedi mind-tricked by politics as usual. Alas, maybe in a few years I'll be beaten back into the herd. tstew
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08-15-2012, 01:25 PM
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Rebel with a cause.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Posts: 6,813
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock
The pastor has no authority outside of God's Word. He has no right to teach personal preferences. I would consider removing the pastor if he was teaching preferences.
Individuals and families invest thousands of dollars and decades of their lives into a local church only to have a new pastor move in with a wild hair.
It's not right to ask them to leave just because he goes off his rocker.
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The wild card here is that there are so many interpretations of scripture, that a pastor may feel he is teaching the scripture exactly the way it was intended. For every scripture, there are a hundred different interpretations.....evidenced by the fact that there are over 38,000 denominations in the world, stemming from the same Bible.
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"Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
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08-15-2012, 01:53 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,467
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock
The pastor has no authority outside of God's Word. He has no right to teach personal preferences. I would consider removing the pastor if he was teaching preferences.
Individuals and families invest thousands of dollars and decades of their lives into a local church only to have a new pastor move in with a wild hair.
It's not right to ask them to leave just because he goes off his rocker.
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People shouldn't be asked to leave over disagreement. When my husband disallowed the husband in that family membership....temporarily, just until he could figure out what was going on with the finances, he did not ask these people to leave. Their response? Tell everyone my husband was picking and choosing who could and could not be members and try to get the district superintendent to have a pastoral vote of confidence. Something the DS did not do because they didn't have enough backing.
So, being asked to leave because of abuse is a good reason, I think. But not for disagreement.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
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08-16-2012, 09:13 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Legally? It depends on the bylaws. Otherwise? God does, ultimately, and His laws apply.
What does His Word say about submitting to authorities?
I would leave to keep MY conscience clear; not for any other reason. Would you keep attending a church while openly disobeying church guidelines? And if so, for what purpose?
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Except my clear conscience is not dependent on "obeying" absolutely each and every church "guideline". I think we owe it to ourselves and our brethren to be open and honest concerning views. Fellowship should not hinge on perfect uniformity.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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08-16-2012, 09:20 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,467
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
Except my clear conscience is not dependent on "obeying" absolutely each and every church "guideline". I think we owe it to ourselves and our brethren to be open and honest concerning views. Fellowship should not hinge on perfect uniformity.
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I think Miss B. is speaking within reason. For example, if someone did not at all believe in standards and the pastor did it wouldn't make much sense to stick around. I think the main thing is do you agree mostly?
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
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08-16-2012, 09:30 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
I think Miss B. is speaking within reason. For example, if someone did not at all believe in standards and the pastor did it wouldn't make much sense to stick around. I think the main thing is do you agree mostly?
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I disagree. We have many in our church like this... going to guess maybe 20%.
Standards are not salvific in nature, so it would be a mistake to break fellowship due to a different conclusion in the same matters.
Just reread what you wrote... "did not at all believe"... that is subjective I suppose. Pretty much everyone believes in some I think.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Last edited by Hoovie; 08-16-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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08-17-2012, 09:40 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,467
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Re: Church Ownership
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
I disagree. We have many in our church like this... going to guess maybe 20%.
Standards are not salvific in nature, so it would be a mistake to break fellowship due to a different conclusion in the same matters.
Just reread what you wrote... "did not at all believe"... that is subjective I suppose. Pretty much everyone believes in some I think.
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I see what you are saying. I also think Miss B has a point. I think the point is to have a balance about it. Many UPC churches do believe that standards are salvific, even if they say they are not. I would have loved to have been part of a church that did NOT believe standards were salvific, who did NOT say things like "Oh she is backslid, she cut her hair". (Really? If standards are not salvific, what difference does cutting her hair make?) Anyway, many, many UPC churches at least practice standards as salvific, making a huge division between those who keep them and those who do not. It causes those who do not keep them to be second class and often resentful which can cause issues. It can also cause resentment from the pastor if those who do not believe in them are vocal about it.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
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