UPC doctrinal contradiction

Praxeas · #1 07-10-2010, 02:06 PM

Ok, first of all I am a little bugged by something. The UPCI website does not publish the articles of faith. Yet, for doctrines of the UPCI, they publish a bunch of lame tracts..TRACTS! In one place I read that we (the UPCI) don't believe in creeds and articles of faith. That seems to be a contradiction itself. Why not publish the AOF on the website?

Well, that led me to this, pointed out by an anti-Oneness Trinitarian. He was making an issue of Oneness saying sins are forgiven by water baptism. I quoted the AOF saying sins are forgiven by faith when we repent. He quoted David Bernard's booik saying sins are remitted by baptism

"Baptism is important only because God has ordained it to be so. God could have chosen to remit sin without baptism, but in the New Testament church He has chosen to do so at the moment of baptism. Our actions at baptism do not provide salvation or earn it from God; God alone remits sins based on Christ's atoning death. When we submit to water baptism according to God's plan, God honors our obedient faith and remits our sin. "

"The New Birth" by David Bernard, chap. 6 entitled "Water Baptism"

What do you all think on this?

OilCityCajun · #2 07-10-2010, 02:14 PM

Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.

Another, more direct analogy would be this: Repentance stops <insert sin of your choice>, but could leave the <vehicle of aforementioned sin> in one's house. Baptism throws the <vehicle for sin> away. The Holy Ghost gives the power to resist accessing another <vehicle>.

Praxeas · #3 07-10-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.

Remission IS the same as forgiveness. Acts 2:38 uses the word "remission" in the KJV but in the greek it's the same word for forgiveness.

Praxeas · #4 07-10-2010, 02:21 PM

ESV Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

áphesis; gen. aphéseōs, fem. noun. from aphíēmi (G863), to cause to stand away, to release one's sins from the sinner. Forgiveness, remission.

Dictionary.com
REMISSION
1.the act of remitting.

2.pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses.

Praxeas · #5 07-10-2010, 02:22 PM

The AOF don't say remission happens at baptism

pelathais · #6 07-10-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The AOF don't say remission happens at baptism

Actually, the manual AOF says remission comes at repentance. I like that and it has escaped the redactors for years.

See the AOF under the heading of "Repentance and Conversion."

The "one step" has been the historic position of the UPCI. Always has been. The Westbergites still haven't been able to change that.

Sam · #7 07-10-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The AOF don't say remission happens at baptism

well, in 1973 the fundamental doctrine statement was revised to say that it happens at baptism.

pelathais · #8 07-10-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.

Another, more direct analogy would be this: Repentance stops <insert sin of your choice>, but could leave the <vehicle of aforementioned sin> in one's house. Baptism throws the <vehicle for sin> away. The Holy Ghost gives the power to resist accessing another <vehicle>.

If this is so, why do most people who go through all three steps fall away? Why is sin so prevalent in "holiness" churches? Why are the rates of marital infidelity, teen pregnancy and divorce identical for those who have done the "Three Step" as they are for the general population of unregenerate sinners?

Praxeas · #9 07-10-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

If this is so, why do most people who go through all three steps fall away? Why is sin so prevalent in "holiness" churches? Why are the rates of marital infidelity, teen pregnancy and divorce identical for those who have done the "Three Step" as they are for the general population of unregenerate sinners?

I wouldn't characterize sins as "prevalent" in any church "Holiness" or otherwise. But your later statement is better...why are they identical?

It bothers me that a woman can have uncut hair, do the whole ball of wax Holiness Standards as far as looks and yet be committing fornication and nobody know. But take a woman that just got sick of her split ends and trims it and all of a sudden she is a sinner.

Praxeas · #10 07-10-2010, 02:58 PM

Here is the quote from the AOF...which you can not find on the UPCI website

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.
Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).
Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."