3 in 1 - I'M MORE ONENESS THAN YOU ARE ...

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I can hear the pitter patter of Brother Epley's feet stomping over to this thread...

I am more Oneness than Epley will ever be!!!! ... with one brain tied behind my back!!!!!!!!!

[SDG]

Carpenter tells it like it is ....

Originally Posted by sola gratia

I alreadly listed the dates on a post - perhaps you missed it

here is an excerpt

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Next is some early instruction on baptism
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, ……. (Against Heresies X.l)


Tertullian (160-215). A major apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. Very respected and influential
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
Origen
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
Of great interest is this – because anti-trinitarians attest that the doctrine of the trinity was the molding of Emperor Constantine’s pagan theologies, with a politically motivated Catholicism, and that is a lie – Constantines Nicean Counsel was in 325 AD - these quotes date some 200 plus years before this counsel.
Anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325. However history vehemently disagrees.
Anti – Trinitarians assess that the doctrine developed in the bowels of paganism – history shows that the doctrine was common place discussion and teaching in the church by church leaders, early AD 70, early AD 100 through to the 200’s and beyond!
This history is not supposition and propaganda but credible, scholarly accepted documentation, of early church view.

First of all, these are translations into English from other languages (Greek and/or Latin). Second, the mere mention of Father, Son and Holy Spirit does not prove that the three are (to quote various modern statements of faith) "co-equal, co-eternal divine persons." Third, Justin's theology was very close to Arianism.

You make the same error that most modern Trinitarians make: you presume that just because Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned individually that they must necessarily be references to co-equal, co-eternal divine persons. You are presenting a logical fallacy*.





*The term fallacy is often used more generally to mean an argument which is problematic for any reason, whether it be a formal or an informal fallacy.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Sameless plug

Anyways...how about Justins? He is claimed as a Trinitarian father....yet he had more than one Lord and more than one God and that second God, Jesus, was lessor to some degree...sounds Arianistic

You mean shameless plug! Yes, it most certainly was.

As I was doing the research for my book, I looked at some of Justin's writings. I haven't decided whether his theology was more in line with what would later become Arianism or whether it was along the lines of subordinationism, though it does seem more Arian than anything else.

[SDG]

Prax, Chan, SG ... Dan is more Oneness than all of y'all.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Prax, Chan, SG ... Dan is more Oneness than all of y'all.

Well, since I'm not oneness, your claim isn't saying very much.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Chan

Well, since I'm not oneness, your claim isn't saying very much.

Told you so.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Chan

You mean shameless plug! Yes, it most certainly was.

As I was doing the research for my book, I looked at some of Justin's writings. I haven't decided whether his theology was more in line with what would later become Arianism or whether it was along the lines of subordinationism, though it does seem more Arian than anything else.

lol....hmmmm maybe I meant sameless...
Nice catch....we need Thad back...I feel like I am having to make up for his spelling errors

Originally Posted by Praxeas

lol....hmmmm maybe I meant sameless...
Nice catch....we need Thad back...I feel like I am having to make up for his spelling errors

Well, since I don't find "sameless" in the dictionary, I have to consider it an error. Then again, would there be some reason for you to say the plug lacked a sense of being the same?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Chan

The scripture says what it says: No MAN has seen God at any time. The angels are not men. Further, according to Genesis God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul. It doesn't say Adam was body, soul and spirit, it says that the combination of body and spirit produced a living soul. Thus, we don't have souls, we are souls.

I'm not sure what your point is here, but Paul certainly taught we are spirit, soul, and body.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1Thess.5:23)

I find it interesting that when John escaped physical limitations as a result of being "in the Spirit" on the Isle of Patmos, he not only had a revelation of Jesus Christ, but saw God seated upon the throne and Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of He who sat upon the throne.

This is what I believe will happen when we finally escape the veil of our flesh. We will see God in a way that we have never been able to see Him because we have become like Him.