Letter from Bro. Chester Wright to Bro. Haney

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The Billy Graham way? I understand I just don't believe in it. I was at an Apostolic meeting where this was done and didn't believe in it there either.

I'm being serious here........what part of it don't you believe? That they can actually repeat words from someone else and still mean them? I've seen lives completely turned around like this. You can tell when people are sincere and when they're not.

Sometimes I've seen people cry and repent at an altar, but it doesn't last. On the other extreme, I've seen people "make a decision" to follow Jesus with no emotions visible, and they totally turn their lives around. Hopefully most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't think it hurts anyone to shed tears when they're asking for forgiveness, but I don't think it's a requirement.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I'm being serious here........what part of it don't you believe? That they can actually repeat words from someone else and still mean them? I've seen lives completely turned around like this. You can tell when people are sincere and when they're not.

Sometimes I've seen people cry and repent at an altar, but it doesn't last. On the other extreme, I've seen people "make a decision" to follow Jesus with no emotions visible, and they totally turn their lives around. Hopefully most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't think it hurts anyone to shed tears when they're asking for forgiveness, but I don't think it's a requirement.

Repentance is a beautiful thing no matter how it is accomplished. There is joy in heaven when one sinner repents to God by turning away from sin.

[Steve Epley]

Repeating the sinner's prayer is like infant baptism, sprinkling, the Trinity, purgatory, etc. it is NOT in the Bible.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Repeating the sinner's prayer is like infant baptism, sprinkling, the Trinity, purgatory, etc. it is NOT in the Bible.

Some people don't know how to pray to God. Helping them pray a prayer of repentance is not wrong. But telling them they are saved after they pray that prayer is wrong.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Repeating the sinner's prayer is like infant baptism, sprinkling, the Trinity, purgatory, etc. it is NOT in the Bible.

Neither is sobbing at an altar, but we accept that. In the Greek, the word for repent just meant "about face" - someone turning and heading in the other direction. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that tells you how to repent.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Neither is sobbing at an altar, but we accept that. In the Greek, the word for repent just meant "about face" - someone turning and heading in the other direction. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that tells you how to repent.

There are verses in the OT and an example in Corinthians. I'm too tired to look them up...

[tv1a]

In my experience with 3 stepping churches, the emphasis is on baptism and speaking in tongues, the outward manifestations of salvation. Repentance usually takes a back seat. More people are concerned with speaking in tongues than they are seeing the fruit of repentance. I've seen people get the Holy Ghost, baptized in Jesus name in the span of 15-20 minutes, never to return. It is because they did not repent. The fruit of repentance wasn't there.

If you think about it, the insistance on the outward manifestations of salvation coincides with their outward manifestations of holiness doctrine.

That being said, I'm a diehard "3 stepper". But I have done a 180 turn on how I present gospel.

In studying Acts, I could not find scripture where the plan of salvation was presented in a sermon. Acts 2 Peter preaches. Cliff notes version: You screwed up and killed the Messiah. Crowd response: What should we do? Peter response: Repent and be baptized.

Peter at Cornelius' house: Peter talks about his interraction w/God. Cornelius' respons: spoke in tongues. Peter response: Get them baptized.

Paul's message on Mars Hill: There's a God who you don't know, but you can. Seek for him. Response: Want to learn more... Paul's response: Imparted truth.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where the plan of salvation is presented until there is an interest in knowing. Acts 2:38 is a response to the gospel not the gospel itself.

I guess I'm a one stepper in the sense that without repentace, the other steps are won't have a lasting effect. But I'm a 3 stepper because I believe all three are needed.

Originally Posted by Sherri

Neither is sobbing at an altar, but we accept that. In the Greek, the word for repent just meant "about face" - someone turning and heading in the other direction. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that tells you how to repent.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=tv1a;580108]In my experience with 3 stepping churches, the emphasis is on baptism and speaking in tongues, the outward manifestations of salvation. Repentance usually takes a back seat. More people are concerned with speaking in tongues than they are seeing the fruit of repentance. I've seen people get the Holy Ghost, baptized in Jesus name in the span of 15-20 minutes, never to return. It is because they did not repent. The fruit of repentance wasn't there.



ABSOLUTELY! I was a new convert coming out of Catholicism over thirty six years ago and ****I**** noticed that!

If there was a service, especially a shouting service , toward the end of the service the call would go out...."Is there any one here tonight that wants to be baptized in Jesus Name???"

And of course you would have several (it was a large church with an amazing turn over of people and incredible influxes of visitors) hands would shoot up.

They would be baptized in Jesus Name, everyone would sing "I'm so glad that I've been buried in the Name of the Lord...." and then you would never see them again.

Over the years the emphasis moved away from getting your visitors into the baptistry to geting them filled with the Holy Ghost. And dance and shake and fall and whoop it up and yell in tongues....and then..... You guessed it, Only to never see them again!
I think a large part of that is understandable given the TIMES.

Many of the preachers were still living in a kind of mindset of several things.

The society they had grown up in in the 1910's and 20's saw a tremendous amount of people who DID have some kind of experience with God, almost all having been some kind of denominational Christian, so I think the preachers subconsciously were still fighting the old baptismal formula battle wether they realized it or not. In other words, they were subconsciously going for the trinitarian BELIEVER to step up into the truth of Jesus Name Baptism. Just taking it for granted not only that they HAD repented but that they may very well have received the Holy Ghost as well.

Then the thinking subtly and gradually shifted, and became a Holy Ghost issue.

Repentance from Dead Works ( works of the flesh such as adultery strife variance etc, that will surely bring death, AS WELL as the thinking that the GOOD WORKS that we do can bring life...THEY CAN'T!) is the very foundation of the New Birth Experience.

I would say that while I agree that DISPLAYS of emotion are pretty much valueless after thirty six years of MY observing them, the fact remains that GODLY SORROW worketh repentance that needeth not to be repented of.

The example of men and women repenting in bitter tears in the Bible DOES exist and surely demonstrates or at least intimates that repentance.

Others though make a very calculated evaluation of their life and the direction it is headed in, repentance and their need of it, and with that same cool calculation (and I don't mean that negatively) they assess what they need to do and make a profound decision TO turn away from a life of sin and to faith in Messiah Jesus.

I think we ALL have seen people in both categories...the blubberer that is CONSTANTLY in and out , compared with some pretty seemngly emotionless people that go all the way to the end living for God.

Its a mystery to me, as I tend more toward open demonstration of my feelings for and in God. Others dont feel comfortable to demonstrate their emotions so freely. Oh well.

But to get to the point. There absolutely needs to be a PROFOUND direction shift here in preaching.... baptism and Holy Ghost are NOT the focus of any salvation message, REPENTANCE is, and it is the true CHANGE OF COURSE that the other two elements depend on to remain efficacious in the heart of the believer. When a man or woman genuinely repents the rest all falls into place as it is preached and opened to them.

Or so I say.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by tv1a

In my experience with 3 stepping churches, the emphasis is on baptism and speaking in tongues, the outward manifestations of salvation. Repentance usually takes a back seat. More people are concerned with speaking in tongues than they are seeing the fruit of repentance. I've seen people get the Holy Ghost, baptized in Jesus name in the span of 15-20 minutes, never to return. It is because they did not repent. The fruit of repentance wasn't there.

If you think about it, the insistance on the outward manifestations of salvation coincides with their outward manifestations of holiness doctrine.

That being said, I'm a diehard "3 stepper". But I have done a 180 turn on how I present gospel.

In studying Acts, I could not find scripture where the plan of salvation was presented in a sermon. Acts 2 Peter preaches. Cliff notes version: You screwed up and killed the Messiah. Crowd response: What should we do? Peter response: Repent and be baptized.

Peter at Cornelius' house: Peter talks about his interraction w/God. Cornelius' respons: spoke in tongues. Peter response: Get them baptized.

Paul's message on Mars Hill: There's a God who you don't know, but you can. Seek for him. Response: Want to learn more... Paul's response: Imparted truth.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where the plan of salvation is presented until there is an interest in knowing. Acts 2:38 is a response to the gospel not the gospel itself.

I guess I'm a one stepper in the sense that without repentace, the other steps are won't have a lasting effect. But I'm a 3 stepper because I believe all three are needed.

Good post, tv1a. After feeling the convicting power of God, new people need to be taught how to repent. After that, hopefully they are in a church where the HG and baptism in Jesus' name is preached. If they are sincere, they will receive it.

[Sister Alvear]

I have seen a lot of people cry that were sorry they were caught not sorry for their sins...
True repentance does not call for a big show of some kind...true repentace forsakes old ways and follows Christ.

I have seem thick books of hundreds of pages about repentance...I doubt when the author finished he even knew what repentance was...lol...