Letter from Bro. Chester Wright to Bro. Haney

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

That is correct! AGAIN means AGAIN not their natural birth that is a given and needs no instruction.

I asked where is the natural birth ever called born of water in the Bible.

I'd like to know where baptism is ever referred to as being 'born again' in the Bible.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by tv1a

What's the difference between an apostolic preacher in jeans than a fat overwieght apostolic preacher who can't say no to seconds, and gaps for a breath after 3 syllables? A grossly obese preacher is far more of an eyesore than a preacher in jeans. Have we become so anal that we have to critique the wardrobe of the messenger? Did Peter and John wear priestly garments when they evangelized? I'm almost ready to break out my Guns and Roses shirt for my next sermon. (btw, if GnR releases their album in 2008, a major soft drink company will give everyone a free soda.)

I think Peter and John looked pretty rugged. In fact, when asked by a beggar for alms, they said, "Look on us. Silver and gold have I none..."

They seemed to indicate that they weren't rich by any means.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I'd like to know where baptism is ever referred to as being 'born again' in the Bible.

Baptism is connected to salvation over and over:
Mk.16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 10:48
Acts 22:16
Rom. 6:2-4
Col. 2:12
Gal. 3:27
1Pet. 3:21

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Baptism is connected to salvation over and over:
Mk.16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 10:48
Acts 22:16
Rom. 6:2-4
Col. 2:12
Gal. 3:27
1Pet. 3:21

You left out "the washing of regeneration".

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Baptism is connected to salvation over and over:
Mk.16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 10:48
Acts 22:16
Rom. 6:2-4
Col. 2:12
Gal. 3:27
1Pet. 3:21

I was referring to baptism being spoken of as being 'born again'.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I was referring to baptism being spoken of as being 'born again'.

Do you think saved-born again-in Christ are not synonyms????

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You left out "the washing of regeneration".

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

and "the washing of water by the Word..."

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Sam

and "the washing of water by the Word..."

lol

great post!

[TCSQ]

Originally Posted by Sam

and "the washing of water by the Word..."

Okay serious question here.

I have heard this verse used repeatedly to argue against Water Baptism being an element of the new birth and instead show that the "water" is symbolic and actually means "The Word".


I have NO problem with scriptures meaning what they mean even if it upsets MY preconceived ideas or positions but this one does not seem to conclusively show what many wish it did.

In fact Robertson on his commentary on this verse (and it seems that most people on this and other forums seem to point to him as the authority par excellence on the Greek text) leaves one just as up in the air as to its meaning as before.

He points out that the word here for WASHING has literal reference to the bathing place and is only used another time in the Koine Greek N.T. in Titus talking about water baptism as the regeneration BY WATER.

It would be easy if the phraseology in the Greek or even in the English was more committal or specific. But in the end the point remains...does his verse basically say 'The washing of water WHICH IS the word" or "The washing of water as taught IN the word" ?

Robertson goes so far as to say that many hold the phrase "BY the word" to actually be indicative of the baptismal FORMULA spoken during the act of WATER baptism. That would certainly be interesting to me as then we would be implying that "the washing of water in the NAME of Jesus Christ " is being referenced here.

I am with Sam on so many things, but this verse is still so ambigous to me and evidently the many commentators that I trust.

I think ultimately this verse is not solid enough to conclusively indicate that the water indicated here is actually The Word. Rather it leaves me still in the camp of those who hold it to mean the washing of water INDICATED BY the word, that of course being the many scriptures in the word teaching water baptism.

Does any one have some more conclusive material on this one verse and its meaning?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sam

and "the washing of water by the Word..."

Is this how you interpret John 3.....Being born of the water (water by the Word) and of the Spirit (?).


Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


I don't know about you, Sam, but regeneration or being born again to me has to do with becoming a new creature in Christ which includes having our sins remitted/blotted out/washed away. The blood of Jesus is what washed away our sins, not the word of God or the gospel. I don't see how the "washing of the word" is relevant to the new birth.

Even after we are born again, we sin and need cleansing. Once again it's the blood that does the cleansing. 1 John 1:7. So what does it mean to be washed with the water of the word? I think it has to do with the word of God convicting us and leading us to repentance similar to what was brought about in the hearts of the Corinth church.

2 Corinthians 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.