Appearance of inconsistency

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by ILG

My view on this subject is that Christian families should, I think, have as many children as possible. By this, I don't mean that birth control is a sin. I don't mean this in a legalistic way. But, having children I think has many benefits. American society has taught too many people that children are a curse rather than a blessing, as the Bible teaches.

Nicely done.

I'll try to sum up my opinions on the topic now:

1) I believe all Christians should receive teaching that enables them to re-evaluate the societal norms they have accepted since childhood.

2) I believe that the advent of the birth control pill brought the dawn of a new era of human sexuality that has transformed society's views of sex, procreation, abortion, and children. Although perhaps intended to help families that struggled financially due to the size of their family, the pill has served much more as license for promiscuity and adultery, and to accelerate the spread of disease. (see #1)

3) I believe that the new prevailing attitude that children are a burden to be avoided in most circumstances is wrong. What's surprising is the strength of this attitude in today's young women. Christians should be taught that children are a blessing from God, and that they are part of God's plan for our training and perfecting as saints. (see #1)

4) I believe abortion is murder, and the use of abortifacent forms of birth control are tantamount to manslaughter. I believe Christians should be taught how the various forms of birth control actually work to prevent pregnancy.

5) I believe that the decision to employ preventative forms of birth control is ultimately one of faith. There are strong arguments for the invocation of the principle of stewardship here, but I will once again refer back to #1, above, and suggest that Christians should re-evaluate how their culture has influenced their pre-conceived notions about the costs of raising children, the priority they place upon their standard of living, and what things are worthy of sacrifice as the scales of life are balanced.

6) It is not a sin to plan the size of your family, or to choose sterilization for medical reasons.

7) In my opinion, people who limit the size of their family solely for financial or lifestyle reasons are depriving themselves of God's blessings. My father owns the cattle on 1000 hills. When Solomon was old, he taught that he had never seen the righteous forsaken, nor His seed begging bread.


I have five children. My wife and I have made our slow journey of incremental learning and faith together. We used the pill for the first three years we were married. Sometimes we have employed preventive measures between children, and sometimes we haven't. I first learned of the abortifacent nature of the pill, and of the quiver-full movement, at her urging. I almost got a vasectomey several years ago. I'm so glad I didn't!

We have put our trust in HIM, yet we understand that many are not ready to follow in our footsteps, as it took us a long time to arrive where we are.

Because of the long and arduous path we took to arrive at our place of faith, I can partly understand why this topic is avoided in Apostolic churches. But on the other hand . . . our movement has many, many fine people, more full of faith than I, and many, many brave preachers who confront other unpopular topics in the pulpit. I think people should be informed. I grieve for the tiny unborn ones that my wife and I unknowingly chemically aborted. I wonder what sort of children they might have been, what they would have looked like, how old they would be now.

I value how those early years without children allowed us to get to know each other more fully, and develop and strengthen our marriage and teamwork, but I regret the methods by which we acquired them.

God bless you all.

Well, one problem that might help you with your guilt. Unless you believe that a child is an actual child in the form of raw DNA in uncombined creative cells and materials, you cannot say that these would have combined on every occasion they came into contact to create a zygote.

You would then have to consider that every time your wife has her monthly deal, and every time you follow nature's call, you would have to consider this aborted life.

[OP_Carl]

Recommend Chewy do some research on the term abortifacent.

[originalsecretplace]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

We have put our trust in HIM, yet we understand that many are not ready to follow in our footsteps, as it took us a long time to arrive where we are.

Because of the long and arduous path we took to arrive at our place of faith, I can partly understand why this topic is avoided in Apostolic churches. But on the other hand . . . our movement has many, many fine people, more full of faith than I, and many, many brave preachers who confront other unpopular topics in the pulpit. I think people should be informed. I grieve for the tiny unborn ones that my wife and I unknowingly chemically aborted. I wonder what sort of children they might have been, what they would have looked like, how old they would be now.

I value how those early years without children allowed us to get to know each other more fully, and develop and strengthen our marriage and teamwork, but I regret the methods by which we acquired them.

God bless you all.

Although you probably didn't mean it this way, it reads like you are saying that anyone who doesn't believe the same and practice the same regarding their family lacks your measure of faith or in other words doesn't have as much faith as you do.

[COOPER]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

So does this Brother think it's a sin for a woman to get her tubes tied ?

After Three kids I saw visited the Doc *snip*.....

Is that a sin?

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by originalsecretplace

Although you probably didn't mean it this way, it reads like you are saying that anyone who doesn't believe the same and practice the same regarding their family lacks your measure of faith or in other words doesn't have as much faith as you do.

Although you probably didn't mean to, your response reveals more about yourself than my writing.

I'm not impugning the faith of others. I'm asserting that there isn't enough questioning of our cultural paradigms. I've expressed my opinions and beliefs about the interaction between American Christianity and new cultural developments.

I see that it is an issue that Christianity is overlooking. We're letting the Catholics do the heavy lifting. We haven't thought about what the Christian position should be.

Different people exercise different amounts of faith in different areas of their lives. Do you carry a gun to protect yourself and your family from violent evildoers, or do you have faith that God will protect you?

I am well aware that what I have presented will be an affront to some. For many it is too late, and it is human nature to justify what's already been decided rather than to confront new ideas. And I am not saying that individuals have made wrong choices or committed sin.

I'm just saying, I did some questioning, did a little digging, and came away with a new perspective that appears to me to be a more accurate representation of a biblical worldview. I also feel that I am a much more blessed man for my journey. I'm not out of line for sharing it.

If you think that I have convinced myself that I have more faith than people who choose BC, you're wrong.

If you think I question the priorities of Christian couples who choose fancy cars and nice houses over children, you're right. I question their priorities, but not their motives, because - as I think I have gleaned from this thread - people have scarcely any exposure to critical thinking on the Christian perspective of birth control.

We as Apostolics merrily scoff at the concept of peer pressure in so many other areas of our lives. We're proud to be different. Is there the appearance of inconsistency on BC?

[originalsecretplace]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Although you probably didn't mean to, your response reveals more about yourself than my writing.

Oops! Caught again...

I'm not impugning the faith of others. I'm asserting that there isn't enough questioning of our cultural paradigms. I've expressed my opinions and beliefs about the interaction between American Christianity and new cultural developments.

I see that it is an issue that Christianity is overlooking. We're letting the Catholics do the heavy lifting. We haven't thought about what the Christian position should be.

Different people exercise different amounts of faith in different areas of their lives. Do you carry a gun to protect yourself and your family from violent evildoers, or do you have faith that God will protect you?

I don't carry a gun to protect myself and my family because it's illegal where I live to shoot people.

I don't think it's totally a matter of God's protection or my faith in God that I don't carry a gun to ward off evildoers but that I have some faith in humanity also. So it's not a black and white issue of faith or not but other factors enter into the equation. Same as BC.

Actually, I question things alot -- culturally both inside and outside the church. Too much for my own good sometimes. I take careful thought and study and prayer when I make decisions. Both my husband and I do. I don't rely on the status quo anwers.

As far as the Chrisitan position on BC, I think it's up to the individual family to decide. There's no Biblical Apostolic teaching on BC -- for or against. The methods of BC are up to the individuals and God to decide.

I don't believe everything I read on a topic from one source or other sources that may have a biased toward a certain paradigm. I read all sides, pray and make a decision. eg some argue that the pill is not abortifacent.

I am well aware that what I have presented will be an affront to some. For many it is too late, and it is human nature to justify what's already been decided rather than to confront new ideas. And I am not saying that individuals have made wrong choices or committed sin.

I'm just saying, I did some questioning, did a little digging, and came away with a new perspective that appears to me to be a more accurate representation of a biblical worldview. I also feel that I am a much more blessed man for my journey. I'm not out of line for sharing it.

If you think that I have convinced myself that I have more faith than people who choose BC, you're wrong.

What you presented isn't an affront to me. It was our family's choice and we made it. Others have and will make their own choice.

I don't think necessarily your perspective is any better a "biblical" view than another's veiw. Whether a couple has children and how many they have hasn't got anything to so with how much God blesses a person or a marriage. He blesses those with and without children. Children are a blessing. But it is a cultural belssing. It was also considered more blessed to have sons. Why? Because a woman needed a son to look after her if her husband died. In many cultures a woman without children is destitute when the spouse dies or becomes unable to work. She depends on her children.
We don't have the extended families today that were common even 100 years ago. The parents dont' have the support they used to have raising children.

Let's face it. Some people, even in the church, shouldn't have children or should limit the number severely. They can barely look after themselves let alone a child both emotionally and financially.

If you think I question the priorities of Christian couples who choose fancy cars and nice houses over children, you're right. I question their priorities, but not their motives, because - as I think I have gleaned from this thread - people have scarcely any exposure to critical thinking on the Christian perspective of birth control.

We as Apostolics merrily scoff at the concept of peer pressure in so many other areas of our lives. We're proud to be different. Is there the appearance of inconsistency on BC?

Could be, for some. Maybe some should be told to hold off having kids until they are mature enough to handle them. Start with not getting married until you are mature.

Come to think of it, many put the cart before the horse on this issue. Maybe if the churches didn't support couples marrying so young, the older women ones taught the younger how to be wives and mothers...

[OP_Carl]

As far as the Chrisitan position on BC, I think it's up to the individual family to decide. There's no Biblical Apostolic teaching on BC -- for or against. The methods of BC are up to the individuals and God to decide.

What you presented isn't an affront to me. It was our family's choice and we made it. Others have and will make their own choice.

All this choice Think about it. For all of history, the human race has not had the ability to choose something other than the natural course of events for a husband and wife. And now in the last 60 years all of a sudden we can choose abortion, choose BC, choose to cut off life support, choose artificial insemination. We're allowing technological advances to drive moral and sociological thought. We scarcely even know how to theologically address genetic experimentation and human cloning.

I don't think necessarily your perspective is any better a "biblical" view than another's veiw.

There isn't a "biblical" view on smoking, either.

Whether a couple has children and how many they have hasn't got anything to so with how much God blesses a person or a marriage.

Absolutely.

He blesses those with and without children. Children are a blessing.

Yup.

But it is a cultural belssing. It was also considered more blessed to have sons. Why? Because a woman needed a son to look after her if her husband died. In many cultures a woman without children is destitute when the spouse dies or becomes unable to work. She depends on her children.
We don't have the extended families today that were common even 100 years ago. The parents dont' have the support they used to have raising children.

Note: This is exactly what I'm talking about. We are measuring this with our yardsticks, not God's. We apply cultural arguments to all aspects of our lives without even realizing it.

Let's face it. Some people, even in the church, shouldn't have children or should limit the number severely. They can barely look after themselves let alone a child both emotionally and financially.

Sister.

Hoo doggies!!!

I know what you're saying but this is a 4-mile freight train of cans of worms.

Could be, for some. Maybe some should be told to hold off having kids until they are mature enough to handle them. Start with not getting married until you are mature.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Agreed this is the proper solution and Christians should train their children with an eye toward the prevention of this type of disaster.

Come to think of it, many put the cart before the horse on this issue. Maybe if the churches didn't support couples marrying so young, the older women ones taught the younger how to be wives and mothers...

Where EVER did you get such a marvelous idea??????

Thank you for taking the time to think and discuss with me.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

So much for a serious discussion.

It only get serious when insults are being thrown around. If you've been around any length of time, you'd know that.

I wish more serious conversations would happen.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I grieve for the tiny unborn ones that my wife and I unknowingly chemically aborted. I wonder what sort of children they might have been, what they would have looked like, how old they would be now.

Unless your wife had tests done to prove she was pregnant or fertilization took place, the above might not even be true. In most cases, the pill prevents fertilization from even occurring.