Let's continue this all the way down to the thought process it is in that Free-will is a lie. 1) We can't choose anything and are totaly depraved.2) We don't repent God does itfor us.3) We can't even believe but God forces faith down our throats and is basically him believing/having faith for us.
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Originally Posted by LUKE2447
Well Good! hmmm sure did not sound like it! Sounded like the sound off board of a Calvinist to me. 4) Where you commenting to someone else who is a calvinist?
1) Remember God chose us, we did not and could not ever choose God-- not without His Grace.
2) Scripture states that it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
3) My response:
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and will not remember your sins.
4) I consider myself to be Calvinist.
God stands at the door and knocks and I am glad that He gave me the will to open the door.
An attitude different from this puts emphasis on my response, my actions, as if there is something that I have done to save myself.
Clearly it is the blood of Jesus that saves and His blood alone.
I am not saved because I spoke in tongues.
I am not saved because I repented.
I am saved because it is the will of God that I be saved. He saved us when we were incapable of saving ourselves and for this I am grateful.
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"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
Romans 9:19 - 24 speak to this situation, though some may not like the implications of it, which again, makes me grateful for the Grace of God!
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Timmy,
For the question as to how one can believe that GOD is JUST and RIGHTEOUS in ALL HE does, refer to verses 23 & 24 specifically, then read the rest of the chapter as St. Paul ties the Sovereignty of GOD into the SALVATION made available to the Gentiles, by faith!!
Again, if we cannot judge the actions of God as either just or unjust, then there is no point in asserting that He is just (or unjust).
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Another argument some use is this: who are we to say whether what God does is good or not? We are finite, and our minds are puny. And we don't see the big picture like He does. We simply aren't capable of passing judgment on God's actions.
And that's a good point, except for one small problem: it goes both ways! We are likewise incapable of saying (with any certainty) that God's action is good! And yet we do it all the time. Someone recovers from a sickness and we say "God is so good". Someone lands a great job, someone narrowly misses a car crash, etc. etc. Who are we to say (even assuming God made that thing happen, which in itself is a tricky question) that it was good?
Again, you could argue that everything God does is good because it says so in "His" word. And we're back where we started.
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I declare HE is Just because I am mortal and nearly as just as HE IS.
Huh?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Well Good! hmmm sure did not sound like it! Sounded like the sound off board of a Calvinist to me. Where you commenting to someone else who is a calvinist?
Luke,
I have thought about this and I ask you, how would you describe your salvation in terms that leaves you out of the mix, so to speak?
I believe we play a role in our salvation, but I don't know how to put it to words in a way that does not ooze, "I got saved when I spoke in tongues."
I flatly reject that notion.
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"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
1) Remember God chose us, we did not and could not ever choose God-- not without His Grace.
But BY and because of His grace we DO choose Him.
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2) Scripture states that it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Yep....and it is we who repent
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4) I consider myself to be Calvinist.
God stands at the door and knocks and I am glad that He gave me the will to open the door.
He did not give you the will. He informed your will. He worked on your will. You willingly obeyed
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An attitude different from this puts emphasis on my response, my actions, as if there is something that I have done to save myself.
No it does not. Just because pme recognizes our response does not mean that is where the EMPHASIS goes
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Clearly it is the blood of Jesus that saves and His blood alone.
Not even the hardest die hard Ultra Con would deny that.
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I am not saved because I spoke in tongues.
I am not saved because I repented.
I am saved because it is the will of God that I be saved. He saved us when we were incapable of saving ourselves and for this I am grateful.
Consider our example in Abraham. It was grace of God first. It was Abraham's faith second. It was God's command third and it was Abraham's obedience fourth.
Had the Grace of God not been there Abraham would have had no God to have faith in. God justified Abraham because of Abraham's faith. Had Abraham not obeyed, though he had faith, he would not have received the promise God promised him of a better land.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Consider our example in Abraham. It was grace of God first. It was Abraham's faith second. It was God's command third and it was Abraham's obedience fourth.
Had the Grace of God not been there Abraham would have had no God to have faith in. God justified Abraham because of Abraham's faith. Had Abraham not obeyed, though he had faith, he would not have received the promise God promised him of a better land.
So how can we apply this Biblical concept to our salvation experience and to how we preach and teach salvation to the world?
If Abraham was made righteous and justified by faith, how can we say anything other than that? We have Jesus to go through and He was obedient. By His obedience, many are made the righteousness of God-- a righteousness we only have access to through faith in the One who was obedient.
Furthermore, Abraham's justification happened before he ever received the Promise. His justification happened at faith. He did obey. he did receive the promise of God.
Those who are saved by faith will obey (or should) the leading of the scriptures and will experience the Promise of God-- Christ Jesus formed in us, the Hope of Glory.
But the attaining of that Promise doesn't establish our salvation.
Biblical faith in Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God, established our salvation and that faith WILL NEVER HAPPEN outside of GOD'S GRACE.
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"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
I have thought about this and I ask you, how would you describe your salvation in terms that leaves you out of the mix, so to speak?
I believe we play a role in our salvation, but I don't know how to put it to words in a way that does not ooze, "I got saved when I spoke in tongues."
I flatly reject that notion.
Did you get saved at turning from sin/repentance? It's something you chose to do. Do works in themselves save you or are works the result of salvation in which we will ultimately be judged by? Works are just as much part of salvation as anything else but they are not the source. The utterance of the Spirit is only a confirmation of the divine making his presence known. Tongues though are not the source of salvation but the Spirit which is Christ in you the hope of glory when you are united in him and you partake of his Spirit.
I also deny we are saved by "tongues" as would any knowledgeable Apostolic. I am also not "saved" at receiving the Spirit as covenant is not brought into fulness until baptism.
He did not give you the will. He informed your will. He worked on your will. You willingly obeyed
No it does not. Just because pme recognizes our response does not mean that is where the EMPHASIS goes
Not even the hardest die hard Ultra Con would deny that.
Consider our example in Abraham. It was grace of God first. It was Abraham's faith second. It was God's command third and it was Abraham's obedience fourth.
Had the Grace of God not been there Abraham would have had no God to have faith in. God justified Abraham because of Abraham's faith. Had Abraham not obeyed, though he had faith, he would not have received the promise God promised him of a better land.
THough I agree with much of this. James is very clear that "believed" is not about a moment in time but the fulness of Abraham's walk. "
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Thus the fulness of faith cannot be recognized until it is completed which is defined by the "specfic" utterance of God. Are we saved by works? Yes and No! Are good works in themselves salvational? No! Until they are relational they mean nothing. Are we saved unto good/God's works? Yes! Are we in the end judged by works and not by faith alone/mental agreement? Yes! Did Jesus base his relationship with you on works? Yes!
Abraham was in the end justified by his works by doing as God asked not simply a moment of time.
WRONG Pharoah hardened his own heart then God hardened his heart. Did God KNOW what would happen absolutely. Did He MAKE him do it absolutely NOT!
Consider this the hardening of Pharoah did NOT make him wicked he was already wicked however Pharoah's choices made him the canidate God needed for His purpose thus after Pharoah's rejection then he himself became rejected and used for God's glory.
Br can you please give me bible for your above statement.
Thank you
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