Book Discussion: Pagan Christianity

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.ubm1.org/?page=newtoubm

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://abidinghouse.com/video.html

[Amanah]

I've thought of finishing the book, then attending a meeting and reporting back.
But I may not be that ambitious.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't attend a house church currently,but I'm not opposed to it,and I may attend one somewhere down the road.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

If one wants to listen to house church services check this out.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=ubmradio

I started listening to UBM about 3 years ago. David Eels teaches more truth than many. He teaches post trib rapture, the head covering, and Biblical perfection. A very strong faith message. Unfortunately he left Oneness years ago.

The way I understand it he is now meeting with a group that has come to him from different states in a Church building around Sweetwater Tennessee. I plan to visit one day. We hear him on Paltalk.com

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't agree with everything on UBM,but I do agree with them on alot of things.
I get a great out of their messages.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Viola contends that the reformation recovered the priesthood of believers for the individual believer, but not for the church corporately. The reformation church still kept the idea of a one man rule: “Luther believed that the church is simply a gathering of people who listen to preaching.” (Viola 133)

Viola feels that the reformation church model put an unfair burden on the Pastor who is trying to do it all. “Jesus Christ never intended any person to sport all the hats a present-day pastor is expected to wear. He never intended any one person to bear such a load.” (Viola 139)

This is a subject I know very little about and I really hesitated to even comment on it. But I do think that the pressure and heart ache of being a pastor might be almost unbearable. And that a system that takes some of that pressure off a Pastor and allows them to share the weight with others, and allows them to be more human, not having to try to portray themselves as super spiritual all the time might be helpful to pastors and to the gifted lay people who can step up and share the burden.

This brought to mind the man ... Moses. I know it is OT, but the OT was given to us for example, lessons that we could learn from.

Exodus 18

12And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

13And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

14And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?

15And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:

16When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

17And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.

18Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.

19Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:

20And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

21Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

22And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

23If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

24So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.

25And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

26And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

I did not read any verse where God was displeased with what Moses did. Thus God allowed Moses to appoint able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness to rule over the people.

While I know nothing about how these mega-churces have in order their governorship, I would think it would be too much for one pastor to deal with considering the many problems society has to endure today.

The early NT Church seen thousands receive the Holy Ghost after Pentecost. When they all tried to live commonly and disputes arose, the Apostles seemed to have taken this same approach.

Acts 6

1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

This Post will review Chapter 8 of Viola’s book: Tithing and Clergy Salaries

Viola says that tithes were part of Israel’s taxation system, which consisted of produce that was used to support the Levites, orphans, strangers and widows. But tithing was done away with when the law was done away with.

New Testament financial stewardship for Christians includes giving cheerfully according to your ability to help the “poor, orphans, widows, sick, prisoners, and strangers” (Viola 174)

Viola feels that Malachi in 3:8-10 The widows, fatherless, and strangers were the rightful recipients of the tithe.

The history of the Christian tithe as an institution “was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and a common system of land-leasing in medieval Europe.” From reading history, I remember that the excesses of the Catholic Church caused such heart wrenching poverty among the people that it contributed heavily to the French Revolution. The Church was part of the aristocracy at that time.

Viola is saying that it’s a poor use of finances to have people collecting tithes to live in mansions, build stadiums that rival the cathedrals of Rome and jet set around the country, while there are poor and impoverished people living in their same city.

Made me think of when it was found that Jim Baker had his dogs living in air conditioned splendor, while people went hungry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake


"Let them eat cake" is the traditional translation to English of the French phrase "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche", supposedly spoken by "a great princess" upon learning that the peasants had no bread. Since brioche was enriched, as opposed to normal bread, the quote supposedly would reflect the princess's obliviousness to the condition of the people.

While they are commonly attributed to Queen Marie Antoinette,[1] there is no record of these words ever having been uttered by her. They appear in Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Confessions, his autobiography (whose first six books were written in 1765, when Marie Antoinette was nine years of age, and published in 1782). The context of Rousseau's account was his desire for bread, to accompany some wine he had stolen; however, in feeling he was too elegantly dressed to go into an ordinary bakery, he thus recollected the words of a "great princess".[2] As he wrote in Book 6:


Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d’une grande princesse à qui l’on disait que les paysans n’avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : Qu’ils mangent de la brioche.[3]


Finally I recalled the stopgap solution of a great princess who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded: "Let them eat brioche."

So he goes to a fancy pastry shop where only enriched pastries like brioche were sold. Rousseau does not name the "great princess" and he may have invented the anecdote, seeing as Confessions was, on the whole, a very inaccurate autobiography: "The 'facts' he so frankly admits often emerge, in the light of modern scholarship, to be inaccurate, distorted or non-existent";[4] and his work is the oldest source for the saying.

In Chinese culture, there is (attributed to Emperor Hui of Jin by the book Zizhi Tongjian) a similar story that involves rice and meat, instead of bread and cake: "an ancient Chinese emperor who, being told that his subjects didn't have enough rice to eat, replied, 'Why don't they eat meat?'".[5]

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008
This Post will review Chapter 9 of Viola’s book: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

I found this chapter on baptism very interestingly worded. He almost says baptism is linked to salvation. He makes the point that there is no “Sinner’s prayer” in the scripture, people came to Christ by being buried in baptism.

“In the first century, water baptism was the outward confession of a person’s faith. But more than that, it was the way someone came to the Lord. For this reason, the confession of baptism is vitally linked to the exercise of saving faith. So much so that the New Testament writers often use baptism in place of the word faith and linked it to being saved. This is because baptism was the early Christian’s initial confession of faith in Christ.” (Viola 188 - 189)

Viola feels that the Lord’s Supper is supposed to be a festive communal meal, not an observed Clerical rite under the control of the Clerical Class. The Catholic Church changed this simple communal meal when they introduced the doctrine of transubstantiation. They believed that when the priest spoke the word Eucharist, the bread became the actual body of Christ to be sacrificed on the altar again. Yuck, it was a pagan sacrifice ritual.

After reading this book, I will never see some things the same again. Till this day we have people practicing pagan rituals in their cathedrals, with Pomp and ceremony and incense, believing that they are sacrificing and partaking of the actual body of Jesus again and again. How perverse, how disgusting.

How can we want to return to that? Those of us who are returning to liturgical practices.

[Jay]

I am going to post a few things now, and I may get bit.

1) I do not believe the that the tithe was ever meant to pass from practice. You see some sort of remnant of it in the writings of Paul when he discussed giving to the ministry. I do believe that tithing is in accordance to Scripture, but that will be for another post.

2) KH, BH, KC, JM, and others are not rich off of tithes, although some make that claim. They became wealthy through the 'word of faith' or 'name it/claim it' practices, where if you gave to their ministry, God would richly bless you. Many people gave offerings (not tithes) to these men.

3) I must agree with his statement about baptism in this section (having never read or heard of the book, I must go by this section). The Bible is very clear on this topic, and it is ignored or denied at eternal peril. The Bible states "Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved." Peter preached to the crowd at Pentecost and accused them of shedding innocent blood, as well as killing their Messiah. The audience knew that they Law demanded the death penalty for these crimes and others for which they now stood convicted. Their question is the same as the one asked in Acts 16, "What shall we do?" The last three words are meant to be understood, "What shall we do to be saved? For we are not under the judgment of the Law, and the only thing that is left for us is the death penalty." Then Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, for the remission of your sins."

I apologize for the lengthy post, but I felt it good to take a moment to comment.