Greek Studies??

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I knew that's what you were going to be getting at.

It is good....I should wander over to your forum again one of these days. How are things going there?

Hey, I am still a student! LOLOL I'll receve instruction from any and everyone who can increase my knowledge or understanding of those things concerning God, even from young whippersnappers like you!

Over at my new house - we still have more visitors than members, and fewer posters. Even so, we have some interesting threads. I even have a board set up for members to publish "articles" they have written. So, of course you would be most welcome.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Hey, I am still a student! LOLOL I'll receve instruction from any and everyone who can increase my knowledge or understanding of those things concerning God, even from young whippersnappers like you!

You'll be happy to know I have it all set up and all the words looked up and typed in. Now to just finish..but the boys are all awake now so we'll see how that goes.

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Over at my new house - we still have more visitors than members, and fewer posters. Even so, we have some interesting threads. I even have a board set up for members to publish "articles" they have written. So, of course you would be most welcome.

I might wander by. One of my other frequent haunts vanished recently. Opens up a bit of time, probably better spent studying but oh well. lol

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I might wander by. One of my other frequent haunts vanished recently. Opens up a bit of time, probably better spent studying but oh well. lol

You would be most welcome.

[A.W. Bowman]

Some note:

We have just gone through an interesting exercise in the meaning and origin or words, namely the word “wear” as translated into English most translations of De 22:5. This was a nice intellectual work out, but did it contribute to our understanding of God’s word?

The answer is yes! It did, or it should have or it could have. There is a vast difference between reading the word for personal edification and studying the word in order to lead others in the proper understanding of biblical principles and to provide sound godly instruction.

Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters (i.e., rabbis, teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. {condemnation: or, judgment}

The requirement to bring the original message and convey the original intent of God when instructed the writing down of His instructions (Torah) and His promises, provisions, corrections, etc. (Tanakh), requires a much greater commitment of time and energy to the task of gaining an understanding (not “the” understanding) of God’s word.

Doing a general word search for perfect, we find the English term occurs 98 times in the KJV of the English Bible.

Generally, when one reads the word “perfect” the picture of being “exact in every detail” or “without flaw” usually comes to mind. For the most part, this English understanding is sufficient for our understanding for what is being communicated. But when it comes to studying and understanding the Holy Scriptures, sometimes this generalized approach does not quite meet our need in acquiring a deeper comprehension of the intended message. Also, please note: This required dedication to study, by those who would be teachers, does NOT preclude scriptural revelation by the unction of God’s Spirit!

One of the major rules of Bible translation/interpretation is: Do not study the Bible through your doctrinal filters. That is, do not search (study) the Bible for support of your doctrines. Rather, search (study) the Bible for doctrines to support. This means that each time one picks up the word of God, one must approach the word as if for the first time. Allow the word to communicate its intent, allow the word to interpret its self. If one’s doctrine fits with that study, great! If not, then the doctrine needs correction, not the Bible! Therefore, those who would identify, develop and teach biblical doctrines, they have a personal responsibility to know and understand the scriptures from the “writer’s world view” because they are the ones who received God’s word and committed it in writing according to their own understanding of God and the world about them.

Does everyone then need to become a linguist in order to read, study, understand, and be able to apply God’s word to their lives and the lives of their family? Absolutely NOT!

However, this board moves scripture based discussions beyond that required of the majority of believers. It impinges upon the knowledge, understanding, wisdom and integrity, of those who would instruct others and to lead them into a “deeper” (greater) understanding of God’s written communication with mankind.

Which brings us back to the word “perfect”.

[A.W. Bowman]

The 98 occurrences of the word “perfect”(noted in the above post) reflect a dazzling array of original language words. There are thirteen different Hebrew words translated as “perfect” and ten different Greek words translated as “perfect”. Each of the original words has different meanings as well as carrying a wide range of possible individual tones, shadings and understandings. Even in one verse, such as Ps 101.2, we find the word perfect used twice in our KJV. However, the first perfect means “whole, sound, healthful”, while the second perfect means “integrity”, which renders Ps 101:2 from:

“I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.” KJV

To my translation of this same text:

“I will give heed to and follow the path (the way) of complete wholesomeness; Oh when will You come unto me? Inside my own house I will walk (live) my life in the integrity of my heart.” AWB

In my translation efforts, I attempt to bring a little more of the conceptual (pictorial) presentation of the Hebrew language into our English language framework.

Lesson: Do not do a word search in English (only) and expect to get a true rendering of the original texts, nor for creating a foundation for developing doctrines. The results are often times combining non-compatible passages which leads to scriptural error and creating doctrines that the Word of God will not actually support.

Homework: Do an exhaustive search of the texts where the original language words have been translated in English as “perfect”. Find all 13 Hebrew and 10 Greek terms and evaluate their grammatical usage and their contextual application(s). Then, go back and reconstruct an English equivalent of the original concept (thought for thought). This may not be the best way of translating the original text, but we have already seen that simple word-for-word translations are not all that great either.

Application: When studying the Bible, doctrines (teachings), or developing a doctrine of your own: The very least one must do is verify the correct usage/application of the key words in that doctrine, as those words appear within their original context.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Some note:

We have just gone through an interesting exercise in the meaning and origin or words, namely the word “wear” as translated into English most translations of De 22:5. This was a nice intellectual work out, but did it contribute to our understanding of God’s word?

The answer is yes! It did, or it should have or it could have. There is a vast difference between reading the word for personal edification and studying the word in order to lead others in the proper understanding of biblical principles and to provide sound godly instruction.

Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters (i.e., rabbis, teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. {condemnation: or, judgment}

The requirement to bring the original message and convey the original intent of God when instructed the writing down of His instructions (Torah) and His promises, provisions, corrections, etc. (Tanakh), requires a much greater commitment of time and energy to the task of gaining an understanding (not “the” understanding) of God’s word.

Doing a general word search for perfect, we find the English term occurs 98 times in the KJV of the English Bible.

Generally, when one reads the word “perfect” the picture of being “exact in every detail” or “without flaw” usually comes to mind. For the most part, this English understanding is sufficient for our understanding for what is being communicated. But when it comes to studying and understanding the Holy Scriptures, sometimes this generalized approach does not quite meet our need in acquiring a deeper comprehension of the intended message. Also, please note: This required dedication to study, by those who would be teachers, does NOT preclude scriptural revelation by the unction of God’s Spirit!

One of the major rules of Bible translation/interpretation is: Do not study the Bible through your doctrinal filters. That is, do not search (study) the Bible for support of your doctrines. Rather, search (study) the Bible for doctrines to support. This means that each time one picks up the word of God, one must approach the word as if for the first time. Allow the word to communicate its intent, allow the word to interpret its self. If one’s doctrine fits with that study, great! If not, then the doctrine needs correction, not the Bible! Therefore, those who would identify, develop and teach biblical doctrines, they have a personal responsibility to know and understand the scriptures from the “writer’s world view” because they are the ones who received God’s word and committed it in writing according to their own understanding of God and the world about them.

Does everyone then need to become a linguist in order to read, study, understand, and be able to apply God’s word to their lives and the lives of their family? Absolutely NOT!

However, this board moves scripture based discussions beyond that required of the majority of believers. It impinges upon the knowledge, understanding, wisdom and integrity, of those who would instruct others and to lead them into a “deeper” (greater) understanding of God’s written communication with mankind.

Which brings us back to the word “perfect”.

Excellent post! I always have tried to pick up the Word as though it's the first time. I'm sure some things taught are in the back of your mind, but I try to read it for the very word value.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

You show me how you have hawyaw as not being translated. I know blueletterbible doesn't have it in there, but my other sources *do*. Blueletter is bad about doing that, IME, and is why I won't use it to set up a study.

Let me look up two words for you.

1961 hawyaw (and keep in mind that this is joined with lo, or a negative particle)
to be, to exist
to be to any one (used of a thing, ie for him as the possessor) to be possessed
to be for anything (ie to serve for or as anything)
to show oneself as such a one
to be about to, to be going to
to be intent upon anything
to be with any one (to be on his side, to take his part)
to become, to be made or done
to exist, to come to pass
to be or come to any one
to be or to fall to any one (as a prey, portion)
to experience the same as

3627 k'ley (and because this is joined to another word..I'm going to look that one up too)

properly whatever is made, completed, or prepared, specially:
utensil, vessel
clothing (ornaments) and here it says k'ley geber, as used in Deut 22:5 to say "men's garments".
a vessel (for sailing)
an implement, a tool
arms, weapons

And this is from the root kalah, #3615

to be completed, finished
to be preapred, made ready
to be accomplished, fulfilled
to be past, gone by
to be consumed, spent
to be wasted, to be destroyed, to perish
to waste, to pine away
to vanish away

And geber, #1397

a man (ok, there's more, but it's a noun..it's man here)

I think this is a case of trying to make it make sense in English and using the word wear because it makes sense with clothing. No big deal, happens all over the place. From what I'm looking at, this isn't going to be an easy verse to translate. But, lo is tied to hawyaw and k'ley is tied to geber. Hawyaw is definitely translated, just poorly. (again...note that I haven't translated this verse...and I've said it doesn't look like an easy one! I have nothing but respect for people who undertook the enormous task of translating the English Bible, and that without computers)

So, are you saying it's a much deeper meaning than just putting on an article of clothing?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

The 98 occurrences of the word “perfect”(noted in the above post) reflect a dazzling array of original language words. There are thirteen different Hebrew words translated as “perfect” and ten different Greek words translated as “perfect”. Each of the original words has different meanings as well as carrying a wide range of possible individual tones, shadings and understandings. Even in one verse, such as Ps 101.2, we find the word perfect used twice in our KJV. However, the first perfect means “whole, sound, healthful”, while the second perfect means “integrity”, which renders Ps 101:2 from:

“I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.” KJV

To my translation of this same text:

“I will give heed to and follow the path (the way) of complete wholesomeness; Oh when will You come unto me? Inside my own house I will walk (live) my life in the integrity of my heart.” AWB

In my translation efforts, I attempt to bring a little more of the conceptual (pictorial) presentation of the Hebrew language into our English language framework.

Lesson: Do not do a word search in English (only) and expect to get a true rendering of the original texts, nor for creating a foundation for developing doctrines. The results are often times combining non-compatible passages which leads to scriptural error and creating doctrines that the Word of God will not actually support.

Homework: Do an exhaustive search of the texts where the original language words have been translated in English as “perfect”. Find all 13 Hebrew and 10 Greek terms and evaluate their grammatical usage and their contextual application(s). Then, go back and reconstruct an English equivalent of the original concept (thought for thought). This may not be the best way of translating the original text, but we have already seen that simple word-for-word translations are not all that great either.

Application: When studying the Bible, doctrines (teachings), or developing a doctrine of your own: The very least one must do is verify the correct usage/application of the key words in that doctrine, as those words appear within their original context.

Amen! I found the above, in bold, to be so true.

Have you done a study on trust? It's very beautiful and expressive! Although, like Spanish, the Hebrew is always very expressive.

[A.W. Bowman]

More homework for those who delve deeper into scriptures:

1. What does the word "converted" mean in the context of at least one O.T. and two N.T. scriptures from the following:

Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. {abundance...: or, noise of the sea shall be turned toward thee} {forces: or, wealth}
Mt 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

2. What does the term Godhead mean in:

Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {so...: or, that they may be}
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

3. Finally, how many and what kinds of love are being discussed in John 21:15-19, and how are the differences resolved?

------------
Not a test and posting is not necessary. This is just a personal exercise for each to undertake in order to check on your own understanding of scripture and to to how you read the word for your own edification.

If you choose to pursue the exercise, how would then "teach" these scriptures to others?

Enjoy your studies.

Shalom Aliechem

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

More homework for those who delve deeper into scriptures:

1. What does the word "converted" mean in the context of at least one O.T. and two N.T. scriptures from the following:

Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. {abundance...: or, noise of the sea shall be turned toward thee} {forces: or, wealth}
Mt 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

2. What does the term Godhead mean in:

Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {so...: or, that they may be}
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

3. Finally,how many and what kinds of love are being discussed in John 21:15-19, and how are the differences resolved?

------------
Not a test and posting is not necessary. This is just a personal exercise for each to undertake in order to check on your own understanding of scripture and to to how you read the word for your own edification.

If you choose to pursue the exercise, how would then "teach" these scriptures to others?

Enjoy your studies.

Shalom Aliechem

Awesome, Thanks for this!!!! I'll look closer at these words and respond later. This is going to be the best thread on the Forum!!!!