I posted this elsewhere, but thought it would be a starter for some chat on this issue in a thread of its own.
A brother shared with me some insight about Cherubims and it was wonderful. Here are the thoughts derived from that brother's studies.
I do not believe cherubims, or the four beasts, are angelic creatures. The four beasts/cherubims cry out that they are redeemed from the tongues, tribes and peoples of the earth.
Rev 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
I once felt the Lord gave me a thought about this as they represented the church, since Adam gave names ONLY TO cattle, fowl, beasts and man.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
And the eagle is the king of the fowl, the lion is king of the beasts, and ox is king of the cattle in Hebrew culture.
The following show the cherubims as the same beings as the four beasts.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Eze 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
Eze 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub (ox in Ezek 1:10), and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Representing the church, the cherubim seemed to represent the dominion Adam had in the earth since he named the animal kingdoms that these faces represented.
And then I read John Gill say the same thing!
Rev, 5:9 and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood, out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; this shows, that as the four living creatures, and four and twenty elders, were not angels, so they were not representatives of the Jewish church; or the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament; not even the apostles of the New; for they were all Jews, and could not be said to be redeemed out of every tongue, nation, and people; and also that not the Jews only were redeemed by Christ, but the Gentiles also, and not all mankind, or every individual of human nature, but some out of all the nations of the earth; for God hath chosen some, both of Jews and Gentiles, and these Christ has redeemed and therefore the Gospel is sent unto all nations, that these among them may be called and saved.
Gene 3:24 ...and these were hieroglyphics, not of a trinity of persons, as some of late have stupidly imagined; for these were the seat of the divine Majesty, and between which he dwelt: and besides, as these had four faces, they would rather represent a quaternity than a trinity, and would give a similitude of the divine Being, which cannot be done, and be contrary to the second command; to which may be added, that the word is sometimes singular as well as plural: but these were hieroglyphics of the ministers of the word, whose understanding, humility, and tenderness, are signified by the face of a man; their strength, courage, and boldness, by that of a lion; their labour and diligence by that of an ox; and their quick sight and penetration into divine things by that of an eagle, which are the forms and figures of the cherubim;
Noah was associated with these four specific "kingdoms of creation" as well.
Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
The faces of the four beasts also show representation of God's people in the STANDARDS around the tabernacle as listed in Numbers 2. The LION was on the east, depicting JUDAH, the EAGLE was at the north depicting Dan (this is interesting since Dan was initially a snake, but to remove the stigma associated with it, the eagle as enemy of the snake was used), the OX was West, depicting Ephraim and the MAN was south depicting Reuben.
These stood for THE PEOPLE.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
By the way, it seems that confusing the cherubim with the angels led people to think angels have wings. Aside form the flying angel in Revelation, where no wings are mentioned and where we also read of a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns indicating a highly symbolic set of visions, the bible does not say angels have wings. Just cherubim.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
The faces of the four beasts also show representation of God's people in the STANDARDS around the tabernacle as listed in Numbers 2. The LION was on the east, depicting JUDAH, the EAGLE was at the north depicting Dan (this is interesting since Dan was initially a snake, but to remove the stigma associated with it, the eagle as enemy of the snake was used), the OX was West, depicting Ephraim and the MAN was south depicting Reuben.
These stood for THE PEOPLE.
This is interesting. Can you give me your source for the change about Dan?
Thanks.
__________________
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This is interesting. Can you give me your source for the change about Dan?
Thanks.
Many sources provide this info. Here is one:
E. The Eagle
1. Tribe of Dan
"Dan's position in the journey was on the North of the Tabernacle, with Asher and Naphtali. The standard of the tribe was of white and red and the crest upon it an eagle...Jacob had compared Dan to a serpent. Ahiezer substituted the eagle, the destroyer of serpents, as he shrank from carrying an adder upon his flag." [Unger, p. 273]
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
By the way, it seems that confusing the cherubim with the angels led people to think angels have wings. Aside form the flying angel in Revelation, where no wings are mentioned and where we also read of a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns indicating a highly symbolic set of visions, the bible does not say angels have wings. Just cherubim.
"Angels" seems to be a generic word covering all the host of heaven.
ISBE
6. Relation to Seraphim and Other Angels
Ezekiel's cherubim are clearly related to the seraphim in Isaiah's inaugural vision (Isa_6:1-13). Like the cherubim, the seraphim are the attendants on God as He is seated upon a throne high and exalted; they are also winged creatures: with twain they cover their faces, and with twain they cover their feet, and with twain they fly. Like the Levites in the sanctuary below, they sing a hymn of adoration: "Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." In the Book of Enoch, the cherubim, seraphim, and ophannim (wheels), and all the angels of power constitute the "host of God," the guardians of His throne, the singers of praise ascribing blessedness to "the Lord of Spirits," with the archangel Gabriel at their head (see 20:7; 40; Isa_61:10 f; 71:7). And so in the Jewish daily liturgy the seraphim, ophannim, and "living creatures" constitute the heavenly choir who, the elect ministers of the Living God, ready to do the will of their maker with trembling, intone in sweet harmony the Thrice-holy. In the Talmud, the cherubim are represented as having the likeness of youths (with a fanciful etymology, כּטרוּב, ke plus rūbh, "like a youth"; Ṣukk 5b; Ḥag 13b), while, according to the Midrash, they have no definite shape, but appear indifferently as men or women, or as spirits and angelic beings (Gen rabbā) 21).
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
"Angels" seems to be a generic word covering all the host of heaven.
ISBE
6. Relation to Seraphim and Other Angels
Ezekiel's cherubim are clearly related to the seraphim in Isaiah's inaugural vision (Isa_6:1-13). Like the cherubim, the seraphim are the attendants on God as He is seated upon a throne high and exalted; they are also winged creatures: with twain they cover their faces, and with twain they cover their feet, and with twain they fly. Like the Levites in the sanctuary below, they sing a hymn of adoration: "Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." In the Book of Enoch, the cherubim, seraphim, and ophannim (wheels), and all the angels of power constitute the "host of God," the guardians of His throne, the singers of praise ascribing blessedness to "the Lord of Spirits," with the archangel Gabriel at their head (see 20:7; 40; Isa_61:10 f; 71:7). And so in the Jewish daily liturgy the seraphim, ophannim, and "living creatures" constitute the heavenly choir who, the elect ministers of the Living God, ready to do the will of their maker with trembling, intone in sweet harmony the Thrice-holy. In the Talmud, the cherubim are represented as having the likeness of youths (with a fanciful etymology, כּטרוּב, ke plus rūbh, "like a youth"; Ṣukk 5b; Ḥag 13b), while, according to the Midrash, they have no definite shape, but appear indifferently as men or women, or as spirits and angelic beings (Gen rabbā) 21).
The seraphim are related to cherubim for sure, but I think they are emblematic symbols and not actual being as angels are actual. Again, cherubims/seraphims are redeemed according to Rev 5:9.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."