Dissatisfied Member of a future WWPF Church

One thing that has not been addressed in these discussions is that of the individual church member. My pastor is on the WWPF site and the I personally do not want to leave the organization. He has not made an official announcement about his plans, but he has been working over the past year to secure votes to remove the church from the UPCI. I also was approached about leaving the organization some months ago and the pastor even mentioned that possibly some other fellowship was being formed. At this point, I believe that he has enough votes to pull the church from the UPCI, because he has been working on this for at least a year.

We have had fellowship with some of the men listed on the site and with their churches. I sincerely believe that those men whom we have had preach for us are very sincere and godly men. These include Larry Booker, Johnny Godair, Floyd Odom, and Nate Wilson and some others. Some of these, I have been acquainted with for many years and I do not question their motives and intentions (it is not for me to judge the heart, which I cannot see), but I do doubt their wisdom in forming this fellowship.

Over the years following my conversion, I have become more moderate in my views and have moved away from some conservative positions (although I have the highest respect for those who hold to stronger standards) because I feel that they pull a person away from true spirituality. The standards, I believe, do have their place in defining who we are as a people, but many churches teach standards and do not teach the biblical principles that led to the establishment of the standards. This causes weakness in believers and creates a multitude of inconsistencies in their lives. For example, many would never watch a movie, but would read a novel that has graphic content, simply because the former is preached against (even though it may be more wholesome) and the latter is not. I sincerely believe that the conservatism that is represented by this new fellowship is one full of such inconsistencies. This also I have noticed in my church and in the churches that we fellowship with.

Also among this group are some of the more ultra conservatives that preach in an offensive manner and dare anyone to question them. I have observed this many times over the years since my conversion. It always produces more harm than good and many sit under it year after year not knowing the damage it is doing to their spirit.

I believe very much in sincere submission and obedience to my pastor and I do not want to be a rebel, but I am very concerned about the direction that our church is taking and I feel that I may not want to be a part of it. I have considered that if my pastor can rebel against his organization because he feels his principles are being violated, then I can rebel against him for the same reason, however, I am not sure that this logic is sound. This is a very delicate matter and there are others out there in the same situation, so I ask that anyone who responds considers carefully what they write and how it may affect others.

Please understand that I am not necessarily asking for advice (although I will take good advice from any source). My question is an ethical one about rebellion to church leadership and its possible justification especially during the current situation. I think I can argue either side quite well, but I want further input for myself and others who may be in similar situations.

I am new to this site and this is my first post here. Because of the nature of the situation, I will not reveal information about myself. I do enjoy reading the various threads and have found many to be quite informative. Thanks.

[IAintMovin]

Personally I would discuss it with my pastor and not seek advice from a forum...........but that is just me.......

[pelathais]

Your post actually reflects the dilemma that many people are facing. In answer (sort of) to your question: A lot depends upon the role that your current pastor had in founding the church. If he wasn't a part of the church's founding or even the founding pastor, then his responsibilities are a little different than that of a founder.

This is reflected in the By-Laws of the UPCI. A founding pastor has greater leeway and autonomy in an affiliated church than a man that is hired, comes in and then wants to take the church out of the org. The ethics around taking a church out of fellowship or affiliation is the same.

As far as your role, I feel that if you have invested a substantial amount of your life and resources to a church then you have an important say. The fact that the pastor intimated to you earlier what his plans were to be would make it seem like he respects your input in some way as well. It's a difficult decision to make.

One thing that could be a likely scenario- though I obviously have no idea about your particular case - is that a board member could call for a board meeting to discuss "the office of pastor." Article 3, Section 3 (b) of the Local Church Government in the UPCI Manual details the steps involved.

Now this would be contingent upon the following:

1) Either that the church in question is affiliated with the UPCI or,

2) That a similar form of Local Church Constitution is in place despite the church not being affiliated.

But if the church does have this in their local By-Laws (a likelihood in most UPC type churches), then a single board member could set things in motion to remove the pastor.

[TrmptPraise]

I am by no means going to suggest or even advise you in an action one way or the other. However, perhaps my experience will help in your journey.

In choosing a church that we attend (whether it may be moving into the area or the church we were “born” into) we are bound, I believe biblically, to place ourselves under submission of the pastor. Now there were many times, because of the nature of my father’s vocation, that we had to move and choose a church to attend. On occasion we were “stuck,” for lack of a better word, in attending a certain church. It may be the only church in the area or it may have not been feasible to travel to another. We may not have agreed eye-to-eye with everything our pastor held in regards to standards, but because of God’s view of subjection, we did not make a fuss or create discord. We simply abode by the pastor’s guidelines.

Your case seems to be much similar now. You have a decision to make whether you feel that your current church (in its atmosphere, its worship, its outreach, etc…) is of greater value to you than what may be your “beefs” with it. You bring up rebellion. I think rebellion in this case would be you staying and creating something that would not be to the benefit of yourself or the body of that church. You may have to ask yourself can I hang here with out this troubling my mind and without it hindering my walk. However, if you believe that you cannot in good faith remain under the subjection of the pastor, perhaps finding another congregation would be better for you. It may be that finding a pastor that you can place all your confidence in and saying your heart “I can subject myself to this pastor” would not only benefit you, but also decrease the chance of creating disunity within your current assembly.

Before anyone blasts me, I would say this about anyone and any church no matter its affiliation.

As Pelathais states, there are other resources dependent on your role and investment in the church. I wish you all the best and pray that God wisdom and direction will be with you during this difficult time.

[Praxeas]

I know of a church that faces something similar...in this case it's not to join a new group but just to go independent. The pastor is working hard to secure as many yes-men as possible. If they don't want to go then that should be final, rather than to try to change their minds.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Seeker

One thing that has not been addressed in these discussions is that of the individual church member. My pastor is on the WWPF site and the I personally do not want to leave the organization. He has not made an official announcement about his plans, but he has been working over the past year to secure votes to remove the church from the UPCI. I also was approached about leaving the organization some months ago and the pastor even mentioned that possibly some other fellowship was being formed. At this point, I believe that he has enough votes to pull the church from the UPCI, because he has been working on this for at least a year.

We have had fellowship with some of the men listed on the site and with their churches. I sincerely believe that those men whom we have had preach for us are very sincere and godly men. These include Larry Booker, Johnny Godair, Floyd Odom, and Nate Wilson and some others. Some of these, I have been acquainted with for many years and I do not question their motives and intentions (it is not for me to judge the heart, which I cannot see), but I do doubt their wisdom in forming this fellowship.

Over the years following my conversion, I have become more moderate in my views and have moved away from some conservative positions (although I have the highest respect for those who hold to stronger standards) because I feel that they pull a person away from true spirituality. The standards, I believe, do have their place in defining who we are as a people, but many churches teach standards and do not teach the biblical principles that led to the establishment of the standards. This causes weakness in believers and creates a multitude of inconsistencies in their lives. For example, many would never watch a movie, but would read a novel that has graphic content, simply because the former is preached against (even though it may be more wholesome) and the latter is not. I sincerely believe that the conservatism that is represented by this new fellowship is one full of such inconsistencies. This also I have noticed in my church and in the churches that we fellowship with.

Also among this group are some of the more ultra conservatives that preach in an offensive manner and dare anyone to question them. I have observed this many times over the years since my conversion. It always produces more harm than good and many sit under it year after year not knowing the damage it is doing to their spirit.

I believe very much in sincere submission and obedience to my pastor and I do not want to be a rebel, but I am very concerned about the direction that our church is taking and I feel that I may not want to be a part of it. I have considered that if my pastor can rebel against his organization because he feels his principles are being violated, then I can rebel against him for the same reason, however, I am not sure that this logic is sound. This is a very delicate matter and there are others out there in the same situation, so I ask that anyone who responds considers carefully what they write and how it may affect others.

Please understand that I am not necessarily asking for advice (although I will take good advice from any source). My question is an ethical one about rebellion to church leadership and its possible justification especially during the current situation. I think I can argue either side quite well, but I want further input for myself and others who may be in similar situations.

I am new to this site and this is my first post here. Because of the nature of the situation, I will not reveal information about myself. I do enjoy reading the various threads and have found many to be quite informative. Thanks.

Unless you are a minister you have no voting voice in the UPCI. You are nothing more than a number in the UPC or the WPF.

[StMark]

I know of quite a few people leaving their churches here in CA.-churches that are leaving UPC and going with WFP.

one family I heard today shocked the daylights out of me!

I don't think that some in WFP took into account that many people have deep roots in the UPC- just my take.

I know one church that will be affected greatly financially.


I think that we'll look back in 2 years and see the real effects this has on both the UPC and WPF.

I have wondered what i would do if my church had joined WPF.I doubt very highly that we ever will so i know I have little to be concerned about

[TrmptPraise]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

Unless you are a minister you have no voting voice in the UPCI. You are nothing more than a number in the UPC or the WPF.

I'm not sure what that has to do with being a member in good standing at his local assembly and whether a church disaffiliates or not.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise

I am by no means going to suggest or even advise you in an action one way or the other. However, perhaps my experience will help in your journey. ...

You put that very well TrmptPraise. Upon re-reading I think that if my words were left there alone, then I really gave a lopsided angle on the issue. I suppose my own thinking on a "non-founding pastor" reflects too narrow of a scope- but it is one hypothetical.

TrmptPraise provides wisdom and balance.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise

I'm not sure what that has to do with being a member in good standing at his local assembly and whether a church disaffiliates or not.

Was the pastor their spiritual father last year in the UPCI? Then why can't he be their spiritual father in the WPF.