Random Questions Thread

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

(From a disp perspective-)

Regarding who exactly was/is Gods Chosen People Israel in and from the old-
Would dispensationalists believe that the entire 12 tribes were God‘s chosen and when they split into Northern and Southern kingdoms, all 12 tribes and a descendents of all 12 tribes remained God‘s chosen, and thereby to this day?
Or do they believe that only the two southern tribes remained as “God’s chosen people”?
Do they believe nowadays that all those belonging to the overseas Israel are Gods chosen, or just part of them, like those claiming to be of the bloodline of certain tribes? I’m assuming they believe that anyone Supposedly, descending from any of the 12 tribes are considered God’s chosen?

I’m just trying to find out how they see things, especially in Pentecostal dispensational theology regarding who is God’s chosen, and who is not as it relates to the nation state of Israel.

I’m not sure they can answer that…but I need to know exactly what they think if possible.

Thank you

What I have found is most dispensationalists simply have not thought through their claimed belief system very much. So they tend to be unable to address these types of questions. If they do, they often run into contradictions with their belief system, or else they discover they really aren't actual dispensationalists.

They also are still stuck on the idea that the modern "nation state of Israel" is somehow "those people of God in the Bible we read about in Sunday school". But not being familiar with the actual history of "those people", nor the history of the current "nation state of Israel" and its population, they can't figure out what's actually going on. So their answers may be consistent with their belief system, but they won't be consistent with reality.

[shag]

Does everyone agree that these two passages are speaking of the return in judgment in AD 70?


Luke 9
26If anyone is ashamed of me and my message, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in his glory and in the glory of the Father and the holy angels.27I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God.”


Matt:28
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


Mark 8-9
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
9:1 Jesus went on to say, “I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!”

[Amanah]

Timeline for Matthew 24 using a preterist/historicist understanding and avoiding futuristic misconceptions.

Section 1: Destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)

- Verses 1-3: Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple
- Verses 4-14: Signs leading up to the destruction:
- False prophets and messiahs (4-5)
- Wars and rumors of wars (6-7)
- Famines, earthquakes, and pestilences (7-8)
- Persecution of Christians (9-10)
- Gospel preached to all nations (14)
- Verses 15-22: The abomination of desolation (Roman destruction of Jerusalem)
- Verses 23-28: Warning against false prophets and messiahs
- Verses 29-31: Cosmic disturbances and the sign of the Son of Man (Jesus' victory and exaltation)
- Verse 32-35: The parable of the fig tree (AD 70-Israel's destruction )

Section 2: Second Coming

- Verses 36-44: Unknown day and hour of Jesus' return
- Verses 45-51: Faithfulness and watchfulness required

Note:
- The events in Section 1 conclude in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.
- Section 2 refers to the Second Coming of Jesus, which has not yet occurred.

This timeline highlights the two distinct sections of Matthew 24, separating the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem from the Second Coming of Jesus.

~Esaias

[Amanah]

I'm thinking all these passages are references to the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' reign on the earth. (Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven)

Verses Referencing the Son of Man Coming in the Clouds

*New Testament References*

1. *Matthew 24:30*: "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."
2. *Matthew 26:64*: "Jesus said to him, 'You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"
3. *Mark 13:26*: "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory."
4. *Mark 14:62*: "And Jesus said, 'I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.'"
5. *Luke 21:27*: "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

*Old Testament*

1. *Daniel 7:13-14*: "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."

[shag]

Thank you.
What do you feel like the latter part of this passage means in reference to the “siege of Jerusalem judgment”?


Matt. 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you.
What do you feel like the latter part of this passage means in reference to the “siege of Jerusalem judgment”?


Matt. 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I think it means that after the temple was destroyed the church went forth from Jerusalem preaching the gospel.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Does everyone agree that these two passages are speaking of the return in judgment in AD 70?


Luke 9
26If anyone is ashamed of me and my message, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in his glory and in the glory of the Father and the holy angels.27I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God.”


Matt:28
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


Mark 8-9
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
9:1 Jesus went on to say, “I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!”

I would say the first verse of each passage is referencing primarily the Judgement Day in which all will be judged. The second verse of each passage is referencing primarily the Transfiguration Vision that would happen shortly after He said those words, and more generally to the fact that "seeing the Kingdom come/Son of Man coming in His Kingdom" is a reference to the Resurrection and subsequent events proving Jesus is the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7, as Jesus told the priests when He was being examined by them that from that point on they would be seeing Him coming in the clouds with great glory etc.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you.
What do you feel like the latter part of this passage means in reference to the “siege of Jerusalem judgment”?


Matt. 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the gathering of the lost sheep of the House of Israel by the apostolic mission of the church, still going on today, which would begin following the destruction of Jerusalem. While it is true that the Gospel went out before that time, it was still tied to the earthly city of Jerusalem and the "Jewishness" of things. Once the city was destroyed, and the Temple wiped out, the Gospel would be able to go forward relatively unfettered by Pharisaic ties to the old system.

The prophecy is clearly dated to AD 70 as the beginning point, since it happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days". But it cannot have been completed in those days because that would mean there is no gathering of the elect now, or in the future, however one wants to define "gathering the elect". So the only plausible remaining understanding is that it began then (as stated) and must be continuing today. Which in turn means it is not speaking about any "rapture", of any kind, either then or in some future event, but must be speaking about the gathering of the elect to Christ by the trumpet sound of the Gospel call.