Pastoral authority
 

quoting from a recent perspective........."Its absolutely necessary for a pruning process to take place in order for a church to grow. Ithe first 8 verses of John 15, Jesus talk about fruit, more fruit, and much fruit. That process is the purging process, whereby God gets rid of the old so the new growth can come. Its very important that pastors and leaders understand what is taking place. A pastor or leader can intervene and actually stop this process because of his God-given authority. He may do this by justifying, by allowing things to go on that shouldn't and actually block God"


I'm really not sure what to think of this. The article is entitled "Pruning to bring forth much Fruit"

Any comments?

I always thought it was the personal pruning of a saint done by God (not the pastor) and not a pruning of the body, the local church.

Shouldn't each individual be considered a tree that must produce the fruit of the Spirit or be cut down? And who is the husbandman that tends the orchard?

I remember hearing a pastor speak after he had lost a significant amount of people, and he said that he'd been grieving over the loss when the Lord spoke to him and said, "Don't grieve over those who have left, the ones that I want to stay can't leave, and the ones that I want to leave can't stay".

Within the next year, his church literally doubled in size, and it wasn't long after that that the troublemakers who had left came back and apologized, and were restored with the right spirit.

The Lord. Perhaps the pruning is done in the furnace of affliction. Who do you say the husbandman is?

Is this the pruning Jesus spoke of in John 15?

The fruit in John 15 is the fruit of the Spirit displayed by those grafted into THE VINE, JESUS .... primarily THE FRUIT in this context, is HIS LOVE. The disciples are compared to branches.

For years, my understanding of this passage was perhaps I was the fruit ... or like many have preached this passage... by asserting that in some way or another our fruit is our achievements, our level of spirituality, or some measure of me.

Here is the entire passage as taught by the Master teacher and it's full context. It's a message of showing the LOVE of the Vine by which JESUS GAVE US THE EXAMPLE -- BY GIVING HIS LIFE AND IN DENYING HIMSELF AT THE CROSS.

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

HERE IS THIS PASSAGE SIMPLIFIED IN MATHEMATICAL TERMS.

1. JESUS IS THE VINE = HE IS ALSO THE GARDENER {v.1}

A. HENCE AS THE GARDENER HE EITHER:
1) SEVERES BRANCHES THAT HAVE NO FRUIT AND PUTS THEM IN THE FIRE
OR =
2) PRUNES THOSE THAT HAVE ONLY SOME FRUIT TO BE MORE FRUITFUL {v.2}

LUCKILY FOR US WE'VE BEEN PRUNED AND NOT SEVERED!!!!

BUT BY HIS WORD WE ARE ALREADY CLEANED/PRUNED [v.3}

B. BUT, AS HE IS ALSO, THE VINE , WE, THROUGH HIS GRACE, BECOME HIS BRANCHES
= IF WE STAY IN THE VINE WE WILL BEAR FRUIT =
WE CAN'T BEAR FRUIT ON OUR OWN BECAUSE WE BEAR FRUIT ON OUR= WE CAN'T DO NOTHING IF WE DON'T REMAIN IN HIM, THE VINE = IF WE DO WE BEAR MUCH FRUIT.{V.4-5}

2. WHAT'S THE FRUIT? .... IT'S ....

1) THE PROMISE OF HIS WORD IF WE OBEY IT ...

7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

I WILL NOT GET WHAT I WANT SIMPLY BECAUSE I DECLARE OR WORK FOR IT ... IT'S THROUGH MY OBEDIENCE TO HIS WORDS THAT REMAIN IN ME THAT I RECIEVE HIS FRUIT. THAT'S PART OF THIS WORD ... IT'S NOT MY FRUIT ... I'M JUST A BRANCH. IT' S THE VINE'S FRUIT.

2) OBEDIENCE THROUGH LOVE AND IN LOVE

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

HE HAS LOVED US= NOW HE ASKS US TO REMAIN IN HIS LOVE =THE MORE I LOVE THE MORE GLORY I GIVE MY HEAVENLY FATHER = THE MORE OF HIS FRUIT BECOMES VISIBLE IN AND THROUGH ME.

HOW?

BY OBEYING HIS COMMAND TO LOVE BY FOLLOWING HIS EXAMPLE OF DENYING HIMSELF AND LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS.

THIS ENTIRE PASSAGE IS A MARRIAGE OF THE BIBLICAL CONCEPTS OF THE PRE-EMIMINENCE OF LOVE, DENYING ONESELF AND HOW OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE ...

1 CORINTHIANS 13 TELLS ME THAT IF I HAVE FAITH, PROPHECY, ETC . AND DONT HAVE THE LOVE OF THE VINE, I HAVE NOTHING.

IT IS FOR THIS REASON THAT PAUL WHEN STATING THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IN GALATIANS ... HE BEGINS WITH LOVE.

THE REST OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF THE FRUIT OF THE VINE'S SPIRIT WILL FOLLOW ... PATIENCE, SELF-CONTROL, ETC. .... IF I HAVE SHOW THE LOVE HE HAS COMMANDED ME TO HAVE AND LOVE AS HE HAS LOVED .

JOHN 15 IS ALSO ABOUT OBEDIENCE TO THE WORD AND THE COMMANDMENT IS TO LOVE. WE MUST NOT MEASURE OUR FRUIT BY WHAT WE DO BUT BY WHAT HE HAS PLACED IN US ... HIS WORD AND HIS LOVE THROUGH HIS ABOUNDING GRACE.

THE MASTER TEACHER SUMMARIZED HIS LESSON ON BEARING FRUIT AS FOLLOWS:

16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

BELIEVERS IN FELLOWSHIP W/ THE VINE ... THOSE WHO ABIDE IN HIM ....SHOW THE MOST FRUIT WHEN THEY OBEY AND LIVE ....

VERSE 13 ....13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

THAT'S MORE THAN GOOD WORKS of SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS , IT'S CHRIST'S LOVE EXPRESSED BY THE WORD INCARNATE IN OUR LIVES.

How does God prune us, Dan?

Can he use a pastor to prune us so we will bring forth more fruit?

Technically, Jesus is the gardener [verse 1]... we are pruned by His Word [verse 3].

A pastor can guide us through His Word and plants the Word ... but ultimately it is the Word that gives the does the pruning and increase.

The pastor did experience a great loss supposedly.......I am told 15 -20 people in a town of 116,000....not including surrounding communities. They all went to a new work.

The author also references the root in Matthew 3 and refers to those that left as being reserved for the fire.

To be honest its a very harsh article and quite scary.

Please allow me to share another interpretation of this as I don't think he severs the branches that bear no fruit.

Jesus said, "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away" (John 15:2)

What a troubling thought! Some good theologians have interpreted this verse to mean that if you bear no fruit you cannot be a Christian or that if you persist in a life without showing evidence of your salvation, you lose it. (i.e. severed).

However, the phrase "every branch in Me" should prove the main point here. The New Testament repeatedly describes the Believer as "in Christ". Therefore, I believe we can safely conclude that it is possible to be "in Christ" yet be like that branch that produces no fruit for a time. Experience bears this out. If you're like me, you've gone a week or any designated amount of time living in such a way that you know in your heart that you did not bear fruit...and I believe that is what Jesus is talking about.

Besides, we know that salvation was never a work on our part to begin with: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

In addition, Jesus makes a puzzling remark in John 15:3--"You are already clean". How is "takes away" related to "cleanness"? And what could "cleanness" have to do with "no fruit"?

The answer I believe comes in two parts:

1) a clearer translation of the Greek word airo , mentioned in John 15 as "take away" would be "take up" or "lift up". We find accurate renderings of "airo" when the disciples "took up" 12 baskets of food after the feeding of the 5,000 men. Or when Simon was forced to "bear" Christ's cross. Or when John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God who "takes away" the sin of the world. In the Bible, airo never means "cut off". So, when some Bible translations render the word as "takes away" or "cut off" in John 15, it is an unfortunate interpretation rather than a clear translation. "Lift up" suggests an image of a vinedresser (God) leaning over to lift up a branch.

2) And why is it that the Vinedresser (God) lifts up the branch? A short study of farming and agriculture provides the answer. The life of a vinedresser (gardener) involves very long hours spent walking the vineyard, tending the grapes, watching the fruit develop, waiting for the perfect day to begin harvest. New branches have a natural tendency to trail down and grow along the ground. But they do not bear fruit down there on the ground. When branches (Believers) grow along the ground, the leaves get coated in dust. When it rains, they get muddied and mildewed. The branch becomes sick and useless. So what do Vinedressers do? Do they "cut it off" and throw it away (i.e. are they severed?)? ABSOLUTELY NOT, thank God!!! The branch (Believer) is much too valuable for that. The Vinedressers go through the vineyard with a bucket of water looking for those branches and they LIFT THEM UP and wash them off" with their callused hands. Then they wrap them around the trellis or tie them up and pretty soon, PRAISE GOD they are thriving!!! Our Father, too, makes sure his crop (the body of Believers) comes in full and sweet. When we the branches fall into the dirt, God does not throw them away or sever them or abandon them (after all, we are "every branch in" Him). Rather, he lifts them up, cleans them off, and helps them flourish again. For the Christian, sin is like dirt covering the grape leaves and air and light cannot get in. The branch languishes and no fruit develops. But the Vinedresser lifts us up and cleans us!!! And hopefully we progress and go onto bearing much fruit for God’s glory...

Now this really is good news! And this is Christ's love!!!

Some other notable distinctions:


In John 14:12-14, which leads into the chapter of the Vine (Chap 15) it reads:

"Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of what you have seen me do. "The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, because the work of the Son brings glory to the Father. Yes, ask anything in my name, and I will do it!"

Jesus is confirming that he did works so that people will believe and he asked the disciples to believe based on what he did (his works, or good deeds). Then he goes on further to say that those who believe in him would do greater works. He says, "you can ask for anything in my name and I will do it because the WORK of the son brings glory to the Father"....and in Chap 15:7 this work is described as "MUCH FRUIT" that brings the Father glory:

Chapter 15:7-8 "you may ask any request you like, and it will be granted! My true disciples produce much fruit. This brings great glory to my Father."

I suppose that as we bear more and more fruit and bring the Father greater glory, people will believe in Him on account of the works we perform in His Name.


Hebrews 10:24 - "Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and GOOD WORKS."

I must have been old dead rotten fruit, because I am no longer in church...I made room for someone new I guess...although I think they will be laying on the ground under the tree soon like me!

Then the best way to prune would be to cut it down all the way.. when it starts springing up from the roots a tree goes crazy....

Dan,

On my web site I have an article titled "Whose Vineyard is it anyway?"

Here is the article:


In Matthew 21:33-40, Jesus relates the parable of the wicked husbandman. In short, this man, assigned to the care of the vineyard of another, lost sight of whose vineyard he was tending and began to deceive himself by acting as though the vineyard and it's fruit belonged to him. Hence the question, "Whose Vineyard is it Anyway?"

Sometimes I fear that we, like this wicked vinedresser, forget that we are servants to the master and behave as lords over God's heritage. We forget that the vineyard does not belong to us and that the harvest of the fruit of the vines belongs to Him.

Failure to properly recognize the ownership of the vineyard caused the wicked husbandman to abuse and even kill servants of the master. At one point this wayward pastor over the master's vineyard even slew the master's son. He wanted all the fruit of his labor for himself so he left the bodies of the ervants and the sons strewn among the vines to rot along with the un-harvested, overripe grapes of the vineyard

Church, when our Lord returns to collect the increase of the fruit of His vineyard, will he find the rotting bodies of the Master's lowly servants and His prodigal sons scattered among the vines over which we were given charge?

What is the condition of the fruit in the vineyard God assigned You?

The Prodigal Voice

http://www.prodigalvoice.org

Are you saying those that are struggling and on the verge of backslidding should not be helped as they are a part of the pruining process that is what I got out of it

If I was a pastor, I'd have a weedwhacker in my left hand and a chainsaw in my right.



. . . on my good days!

Just FYI, John 15 which Daniel presents and the parable you discuss in Matthew 21 are unrelated. Furthermore, where yours discusses a wicked husbandman, John 15 talks about God being the husbandman.

I find this thread very interesting, as a pastor who is currently going through what I feel is a pruning process in the assembly.

It all began several months back, with a trusted brother in the church. One who served on the board of trustees. He began to miss some services, after a decision that I made as pastor that did not go his way. I prayed and sought God over this, and one morning at 4 AM, I woke up and felt the presence of God. It alerted me to the fact that a dear evangelist that I had often asked to preach when I needed to be out of town would be soon be starting a church in the area. This trusted board member had been working towards this. God literally said, " Bro. X will be starting a church in your area, and Bro. Y is already gone. Don't pray about this anymore."

I woke up my wife and told her what I had felt.

It took several months to come to pass, but it did come to pass. Just like I "dreamed".

Over the course of the next few months, several people left. Some attending the new church, some not.

After much agonizing in prayer, God let me know it would be better to work with those who were committed than try to keep those who's heart was elsewhere.

May God bless and keep all, because I can't.

At peace with where I am in Christ,

Pastor Chuck

I do not think it is the pastor's "job" to prune the church. By "prune" I mean preach people out of it. Most know how to do that. That is tantamount to taking the sword to them. The pastor's "job" is serve the people. If the pastor would love unconditionally, I think he would be amazed at how many times these people come around. Of course, not all will come around as there are different visions for a church. However, I believe that the pastor is the one to whom the Lord will grant the vision. If he leads with a "towel" most will follow. If none will follow, then it is probably time to move on and find the place that his vision matches.

Well, now I am confused, just who now is the shepherd? Is it the pastor or the Lord?

I wonder if sometimes the pastor gets into a tug of war with the Lord for the staff and the pruning shears??? I am the Shepherd, NO I am the Shepherd, Ok, then Give me the shears, NO, I am the gardner, you plant, you water, I give the increase, Ok, then I'll take the sheep....

:D

I think 'pruning' is an individual thing and not a collective thing. For decades, every time there is a church split, or a mass exodus from any assemby, someone comes along and preaches the sermon that makes all Pastor's who are in this situation feel righteous and justified:

God is just purging your church of fruitless baggage so that He can bless the faithful few who are left.

If they actually preached what God intended then they would preach on how the Pastor dropped the ball, got too big for his britches, and God is trying to teach the Pastor an invaluable lesson in humility and doing it God's way instead of their own way.

Enough said.:boat

He is the good sheperd. The cult of the personality is one of the biggest obstacles the church is facing today.