Jesus....Not God?
 

I haven't been on in about, forever, but I was wondering about this new doctrine (not really new) cropping up among Apostolics that Jesus was just a man and not God, and this "profound epiphany" solves all the tough questions Trinitarians throw at Oneness folks. How pervasive is this new wind of doctrine among the rank and file, and is there any effort underway for something to be done about it?

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Jesus is definitly God
Isaiah 9:6
"The Mighty God"
Thomas
"My Lord and my God"
1 Tim 3:16
and so on.
The earliest archeological discoveries call Jesus "God"

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Duane, I believe Jesus is Almighty God, but not exactly like the organization teaches it. For instance, I dont teach the DUAL NATURE concept anymore after teaching it for about 20 years. There are a variety of slight variances with most folks' description of the Godhead. David Bernard helps describe some of these differing positions in a book I reviewed online.

Here on AFF, I dont think anyone agrees exactly the same...LOL

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

I don't see it solving anything since it undeifies Jesus and has to spin all the evidence saying Jesus is God.

BTW It's called Unitarianism

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

So Jesus isn't fully God and fully man? Then what is he? Just God? Just a man?

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Sounds like the problem is that many Apostolics probably have never really "got it" that Jesus was and still is a MAN while being God at the same time.

Notice this scripture:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Tim. 2:5

Is there only one God? Yes its Jesus! Is there only one mediator between God and men? Yes its the MAN Christ Jesus!

The Christ is both God and man.

This faith used to be called "Jesus Only". We need to get back to that.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Prax, I spoke to SRM, who is unitarian. He said he doenst believe like me and by definition, Im not a Unitarian at all(because I believe Jesus IS God and he does not). I checked out David Bernards book online and he categorizes several types of oneness idologies. He mentions my way of thinking also, but does not comment on it much. He just speaks of the many varieties.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father.

Let's review how Jesus Himself describes His Oneness with the Father...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray and speak of His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

You are absolutely correct.
Jesus is still a man and yet God, but many can not understand that, so they choose to make him all God or all man.
The idea that he can be both at the same time is too much for their little brains to handle.
Jesus is not 50% man and 50% God
He is 100% man and 100% God, and no this does not make him two persons.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Why do we fear the word "persons"? Isn't the man Jesus Christ a "human person" (human self-conscious reality)? Isn't the Father a "divine person" (divine self-conscious reality)? Don't we see these two realities interact when Christ is praying and the Father speaks from Heaven?

Please note, the distinction of person doesn't demand a separation with regards to being. They are one. They share being. All that one is the other is also. Therefore while we see a distinction of "person" we see a singularity of being.

If Jesus truly is 100% man... He has to have a human mind. If Jesus is also 100% God... as a man, He has to also share or partake in the entire being of the Father, who has a divine mind.

Here's a little graphic I use to explain this concept:

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

I've not seen that happening. Though it really isnt a very far step from saying (as most apostolics do) that jesus human nature prayed to his divine nature. It's not a very far step to go from that to jesus is a man with god insdie him.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Some say Jesus had a divine nature of his own, yet he was full of the Holy Ghost(Luke 4:1). Kinda looks like 2 divine spirits in Him, unless... the Holy Ghost(or The FATHER) in him was actually his so called, divine nature. (thats what I believe and teach)


Besides that, What is the definition of a "divine nature"?

I mean,,,Does God have a "divine nature"? (what is that)?

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

What People Said About Jesus In The New Testament

Millions today believe Jesus Christ is God,in fact those same millions would almost agree and say one of the reasons they killed the Lord Jesus was because "He claimed to be God".I would like to take a look in the New Testament and let us just see if anyone thought Jesus was God or even worse had what some say a "dual nature" or even if anyone thought Jesus was the 2nd person of the Godhead.






Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mark wrote that Jesus is The Son of God




Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God said Jesus was "my beloved Son"



Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

The Devil-Satan said..and asked..If thou be The Son of God..


Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter confessed that Jesus was The Christ,the Son of the living God






Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Paul preached...Jesus is The Son of God





Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


The Centurion said...Jesus was the Son of God





Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Peter preached that God anointed the man Jesus with the Holy Ghost




Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

The beloved John wrote...Jesus is the Son of God




Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John tells us WHY He wrote his book....that we might believe Jesus is the Christ..the Son of God





Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus confesses He has a God and therefore NOT God (Can God have a God and still be God?)




Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Angel Gabriel told Mary the baby she shall have shall be called The Son of God (nothing about an impersonal nature)





Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

The evil spirit confessed that Jesus is the Son of the most High God





Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus while praying tells His Father that He is the only true God..If there is one God and Jesus calls the Father God then.....



Did Jesus Tell the Sanhedrin He Was God?

It is most significant that neither the witnesses nor Sanhedrin members accused Jesus of ever claiming to be God. Jews had so accused Jesus twice in his career; yet both times he denied their accusation 5.16-47; 10.30-38). Apparently, they accepted his denial.

If Jesus had ever claimed to be God, “it is inconceivable… that it should not come out in the charges against him at the trial, where again the worst that can be said about him is that he claimed to be ‘God’s son.’”





Mat 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

The sign put over the head of Jesus at his crucifixion said that Jesus is the King of the Jews



How many times must the New Testament say for people to believe what was said about Jesus?


Looking back at Matthew 16 I wanted to point out this last interesting fact.Jesus asked his disciples WHO DO PEOPLE SAY I AM?

How many times have you read this but never consider WHAT WAS SAID BY THE PEOPLE or even the other disciples besides Peter? The focus has always been placed on Peter's confession but look at what others said about Jesus when Jesus himself asked the question


Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?



DID ANYONE EVEN THINK HE WAS MESSIAH yet alone God?...yet churches today teach one of the reasons or THE reason Jesus was killed was becaused He claimed to be God?



Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter confessed Jesus is THE SON OF GOD..nothing about being God,the 2nd person,a dual nature man,the flesh part of God or even God manifested in flesh.The disciples,towns people,Jews,Sanhedrin never thought Jesus was God but rather THE son of God..

This is the preponderance of scripture...what will you do with the truth?

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Jesus is God because God said Jesus was God.

What SRM is forgetting is that there are a number of Old Testament prophecies that are referring to Jehovah, or where Jehovah refers to himself, and these prophecies are fulfilled by Jesus Christ. This is what the exaltation of the man Christ Jesus accomplished. God now operates through and receives worship exclusively by the Son. Had the man Christ Jesus rejected the will of God, then the Spirit would have departed from him and he would have been just an ordinary man. But because he remained obedient unto the death of the cross, God exalted him to the point where He does not even want to be acknowledged except through his Son. The Godhead is in Jesus.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Amen, the Godhead is in Jesus.,

However brother, SRM is tripping on the DUAL/NATURE concept that I brought up in the prior post. It is not biblical. It was an invented phrase by us oneness believers that demands to be defined. I taught it for 20 years or so...I should know.

When I would teach it in those days, it was like I was saying Jesus had a man part and a God part of His own. Kind of like a split personality in one.

When the fog started clearing, I realized Jesus had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That was actually the Spirit of His Father inside Him.

However, I believe as you all know by now, Jesus was resurrected and Is now the express image of Almighty God, which, with the fullness of the Godhead is in Him BODILY, makes Him our God.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

The Divine Spirit he was "full of" was His own Divine Spirit

Nature refers to a set of qualities and or attributes that determines whatever kind something or someone else.

Rocks have nature. Birds have nature

God has a Divine nature. He has Divine qualities and attributes. He has a Divine Mind, Will, Spirit, Thoughts, Power, Wisdom etc etc

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Sean,

This is the lowest possible view of Christ. It denies he pre existed. If he never pre existed how did he make the world?

1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him. John 1:10

If he never pre existed how did he see satan fall from Heaven?

10:18 He said to them, “I saw Satan having fallen like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

If he never pre existed how was he before John?

1:30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who is preferred before me, for he was before me. John 1:30

If he did not pre exist how did he see Abraham?

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56

If he did not pre exist how could h

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

The Divine Spirit he was "full of" was His own Divine Spirit, QUOTE PRAXEUS



Prax, that is what I struggled with, (what you just said). When I saw Jesus had the actual Holy Ghost and likewise noticed He said, "the Father that is IN me, He doeth the works", then thinking Jesus had a "DIVINE" nature of his own. My conclusion was more than one divine "being".

Now by removing the divine nature idea from my vocabulary, It became much more understandable to teach.

I just simply said the Father was INSIDE the Son.

Trust me when I say JESUS IS GOD. I just believe, in his 33 years on earth he was a completely human being, wth NO special, God like nature of his own. Simply put, Adam was a completely human being and so was Jesus(the 2nd or last Adam)

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Sean,

This is the lowest possible view of Christ. It denies he pre existed. If he never pre existed how did he make the world?

1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him. John 1:10

If he never pre existed how did he see satan fall from Heaven?

10:18 He said to them, “I saw Satan having fallen like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

If he never pre existed how was he before John?

1:30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who is preferred before me, for he was before me. John 1:30

If he did not pre exist how did he see Abraham?

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56

If he did not pre exist how could h QUOTE MICHAEL THE DISCIPLE

(HEY BRO. SOMETING HAPPENED TO YOUR POST)

Brother Michael, your new Testament verses can be easily explained as the Father inside of Jesus, speaking to the pharisees about the past that "He saw". Jesus in John 14, admits "the words that I speak are not of myself"...(not my words)..."but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME. He doeth the works"
That is why he said..."before Abraham was, I AM"...That was Jehovah God talking to those pharisees.




Brother, if you believe Jesus actually physically preexisted, then you have more than one divine being.

Notice these passages...

Rev 13:8...And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Jesus was murdered before the world was even created)...by whom?

Col. 1:15....Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Jesus was born before Adam or any living thing that was created)

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.(Jesus resurrected from the dead before all of these examples to follow)......

Old Testament

Elijah resurrected the son of Zarephath's widow
Elijah resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman
Even after he was dead, the anointing still remaining in Elisha's bones raised someone from the dead.

New Testament
Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain
Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead
Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead
Many saints resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
But wait, it says Jesus was the firstborn of the Resurrection. He was resurrected before these folks.



Romans 4
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.(brother Michael, these things I mention above are not contradictory, but in reality, God speaks of things that DO NOT EXIST, as though it they do exist.)

Same as Jesus creating the world. God spoke to His begotten son, even before he was actually born. Ps. 2:7... I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee(this is God speaking to Jesus over 1000 years before he was even begotten. In the mind of God, HE WAS BORN THAT DAY, because God is "timeless")

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

There will be more and more errant doctrines rise up. Universal reconciliation, homosexuality is not a sin, God does not view Christians as capable of sinning, Christians do not have to ask forgiveness for sin, etc. All these are more recent ones. It will just get worse.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

BTW guys, I got all of my info by listening to trinity/oneness debates. (Hicks/ Hill) from the 70s, They are UPC inspired.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Guys, I posted a couple of things on page 2. There is a big blank space between me and Michael.(just so you see it at the bottom of the page)

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

The Divine nature of Jesus is the same Divine nature of the Father.

That's NOT two Divine beings. I don't have a problem with this

Your view that Jesus was not Divine but just Human is Unitarianism.

Jesus was NOT God in your view IF He did not have the Divine nature as well as a Human nature. If he just had a Human nature then he was Just human and not God.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Prax, do you believe Jesus preexisted before he was born?

If so, can you explain in your words how he did?

BTW. The Unitarian position teaches JESUS IS NOT GOD as we speak.

I say JESUS IS GOD as we speak.(on page 89 of Bernards book "oneness of God, volume 1, Bernard considers my position "ADOPTIONISM") , Download this book for free and find out what I am saying yourself.(I would post it, but It wont allow me to)

YOU ARE BLATANTLY MISREPRESENTING MY POSITION TO BOLSTER YOUR POSITION IN THE EYES OF THE READERS.

SRM sent me his doctrinal theses and it does not include my position. He said it is NOT unitarian in doctrine.(on page 89, Bernard explains Unitarianism there also.)




Again I SAY to ALL of YOU reading this....


JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD, I dont want anyone to be falsifying my position, to prejudice the readers!

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Yes

As God

Right...so do you. You might say "Jesus is God" but then you turn around and say He has NO Divine nature. He is just Human.. It's really confusing

"Jesus is God" is not adoptionism.

Adoptionism is the teaching that God saw a man and "adopted" Him to make Him His own Son

No Im not. I can quote you (and I did).

Here is what you said

See that part? NO GOD LIKE NATURE OF HIS OWN means "NOT GOD".

Is Jesus the same "Person" as the Father or is Jesus someone other than the Father?

Unitarianism teaches Jesus was just human..he did not have a Divine nature.

That's what you said "I just believe, in his 33 years on earth he was a completely human being, wth NO special, God like nature of his own."


But THEN you contradict that and say Jesus is NOT God when you say "I just believe, in his 33 years on earth he was a completely human being, wth NO special, God like nature of his own."

To NOT have a Divine nature is to NOT be God

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

But Prax, the point that differentiates me and the Unitarians I am trying to make is how I say Jesus became God when He resurrected.
The Unitarian says Jesus NEVER became God after the resurrection(and never will be God).
I may not even have a "brand" yet, if "adoptionism" doesnt define my beliefs.

My beef is about a non existent Christ before his birth and His 33 years on earth as what he consisted of.
The belief I have with the Godhead as (after) His resurrection is identical with Bernard.

Bernard and I were interestingly enough, on the same page, saying the "divine nature" in Jesus was the Spirit of the Father.

I see how he says Jesus was God(the father) as the same being in the Beginning. But I ran into a wall with in term "incarnation". (It implies the God became a man). I do not believe that GOD became a MAN....
I believe that God gave the seed to make a man(begotten Son), and chose to dwell in that man for his life on earth(which was the Holy Ghost or, Spirit of the Father).

Isaiah 9:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus was a the everlasting Father. The only way he could be that is that the Father was inside of his human body.(I believe that). If he died as the everlasting Father, then we have a dead everlasting Father.

I read the oneness term..."the flesh of God". That is nonsense to me. God, in my opinion, did not have a flesh(part). I believe Jesus was totally Human during His 33 years on earth, with a BODY,SOUL and SPIRIT of his own. He was just "indwelled" by God.
That same everlasting Father raised Him from the DEAD, and "indwells" Him today. Jesus is simply the "house" or "temple" of God for us to Identify God to an image to worship. Jesus is also the NAME of our God, since God resides in his glorified body.(and didnt change his name).
Bernard also says the role of the son(Jesus) will cease(that God will be all in all). I have no comment on that, but he may be right.


The following is a Commentary on Bernard I got off a website to further explain his beliefs. This commentary is a rebuttal of his teachings of a preexistent son and the role of the son....



PRE-EXISTENCE OF THE SON OF GOD

The Onenites quickly dismisses the sonship prior to the incarnation by saying it all is prophetic. Instead of letting the Bible express what it means they like J.W.s and other anti-Trinitarians use their cultic interpretation and rules for Biblical hermeneutics.

Heb.1:2 states that God... has in these last days spoken to us by his Son whom he has appointed heir of all things, through whom he made the worlds." his agrees with Jn. 1:3 " all things were made through him and without him nothing was made that was made."

The same Son who is speaking to us now was present at creation. This is the same Son that was in the bosom of the Father, which means a place of blessedness and relationship. It is here where we expose their presumptions for their theology. Bernard emphatically denies this "There was a time when the Son did not exist; God prophesied about the Son’s future existence." (p.105) Bernard clarifies his view: "What does creation ‘by the Son’ mean, since the Son did not have a substantial pre-existence before the incarnation." "Of course, we know that Jesus as God pre-existed the incarnation, since the deity of Jesus is none other than the Father himself. We recognize that Jesus (the divine Spirit of Jesus) is indeed the creator." (p.115) I'm not sure that we are reading the same Bible but if he, Jesus the Son, was there before Creation as the Son, creating as the Scriptures state, which certainly dismisses a view of prophecy. Bernard goes further to claim "the Sonship had a beginning and will have an ending,"(p.122) that the Son will cease. "When the millennium is completed, the Sonship ministry will be finished." (Is Jesus in the Godhead, Magee p.25) Yet not all Oneness adherents agree with Bernard that the sonship role will cease. Others say, "The Son is the permanent body of the Father" (Norris p.6) "God became a man, and he will be a man forever more". (R. Sabin VI, p.3)





Guys, I am so close to Bernards' beliefs its almost identical. If you believe Jesus preexisted, you are teaching against your superintendents position!

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Thanks, Aquila, for succincly describing the Lord of the Universe!

I've been doing some reading about Jesus' divinity lately, including a book called, "When Jesus Became God". This well- researched historical book is interesting. I have to keep in mind that a skeptical Jew wrote it.

Sean, if Christ did not have two natures, then why did he fall asleep on the boat, get hungry in the wilderness or weep at Lazarus' tomb? Was he only demonstrating human weakness - was it an act - for the benefit of his followers? I'm curious as to how you have come to your conclusions.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Sean, if Christ did not have two natures, then why did he fall asleep on the boat, get hungry in the wilderness or weep at Lazarus' tomb? Was he only demonstrating human weakness - was it an act - for the benefit of his followers? I'm curious as to how you have come to your conclusions.QUOTE



Brother, it was not, in my point of view, 2 natures, no more than WE have 2 natures.

Jesus was as human as we are right here and now.
Our brethren have said that Jesus WAS a God/man. Its right in our book of doctrines.
If that is true, when Jesus was born, God had a placenta.....LOL

One thing I admonish the brethren is to leave no stones unturned in your mind about the oneness theology you teach. If someone brings up a tough question. figure it out and deal with it the best you can. Everyone has a little different(slight variations) idea of oneness theology in our movement. If we were not allowed that, and we were just supposed to "parrot" the organizations' position, we would be trapped in situation of possible heresy in some cases with no way out.





Also , if Prax tries to pin this misrepresentation of a "Unitarian" label on me again, I will spread it all over the AFF that he is a "closet" Giants' fan...LOL

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Sean, Jesus became god???!!

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Not a bad idea. Why not do the same thing on some of our views on Spirit filled people who had a less than perfect baptism?

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Because regarding water baptism, it is very clear what to do.
But with the Godhead, the Bible calls it a "mystery"(mystery of Godliness)....It is much harder to figure out for most folks.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

I can draw no other conclusion. Unless he was an actual Human/God.
(Like a baby, getting its diaper changed,,,etc. being God),
I simply believe, as Bernard teaches in the prior post, God(Father) was in that baby and was inside him as he grew up and became a man.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

...I think ur too far gone

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

If you were the mother of Jesus, you would not think so.

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

So he wasn't God while here on earth? Was he God before that? Is he the same "Person" that created everything

David Bernard does not deny Jesus preexisted. He denies Jesus preexisted as a second Divine Person and as the Human Son. David Bernard did NOT teach Jesus was just a man who became God after resurrection

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Christ is not non-existent before birth. He did not exist AS a man. But He did exist as God (the Logos)

Bernard does not teach Christ was just a man who became God

Most OPs say that but the Divine nature was not merely INSIDE another Person nor inside a body (Jesus is not a body). The Divine nature was a Part of His Person as the Son. Deity and Humanity in Unity. That is what Bernard teaches, that Jesus was fully man and fully God before the resurrection and after His birth

Right...that leads me back to Unitarianism. You have two persons. One is God and the other is not. The DIFFERENCE is your other person becomes God later on.

You either have Binitarianism post resurrection or polytheism post resurrection

And that is enough for me to say what you and Bernard believe are way far apart from each other.

You see, THAT little fact that Bernard believes God became human is the proof that Bernard believes Jesus preexisted.

He preexisted AS the Creator, as God.

In fact I'd argue that your position is philosophically and biblically impossible or you have two Gods for the following reason

When you understand what NATURE means, you will understand this. Nature refers to a set of qualities that is specific or unique to a class of beings. In God's case HE is alone in His class not like Human beings who are many within that class.

And every being has nature even non living beings. God's nature includes Eternality, defined as uncreated and without beginning

It appears you have an individual that was created when God put that seed in Mary.

Further, part of God's nature is that He is the first cause, the Creator. Jesus becoming the Creator is a logical contradiction since He did not create and did not exist at or before Creation. So He can't have the exact same nature as the Father. He can't be the same BEING as the Father. He is someone else with a god like nature maybe but it's logically impossible to argue He has the exact same nature as the Father.

Right, Sounds like two persons

Uh..wait. That is confusing. Are you arguing he could not have been the Everlasting Father? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. It sounds like you just argued He IS the Everlasting Father because the Father was INSIDE His Body and then argued he could not have been the Everlasting Father because that would have meant the everlasting Father died.

BTW that verse calls that CHILD both Everlasting Father and Might God..but you say he was not (while he was a child) but was only God after he was an adult and was resurrected

BTW I disagree it's having the Father INSIDE His body that makes Him the Father. That would make us the Father as well

For the record we ALL believe He was totally human while here but he was not just indwelled by God

The same Father that indwells Him before the resurrection? You said earlier it was the indwelling Father that made Jesus "Everlasting Father". Im very confused at what you believe and the problem I have is you usually become angry at me and a little belligerent towards me when this happens.

But you said Jesus IS God. Now you are saying Jesus is simply the house of God...*confused*

Confused even more. I don't see how God's name becomes "Jesus" just because God is living in His Body. Also it sounds like you are arguing Jesus is NOT God again but has God living in His body

What's the point in quoting someone's opinion of what Bernard teaches?

What was your point?

no you're not

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Jfrog please read my response to his post to me. Let me know what I am missing because I am very confused. He seems to contradict his own claims

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

No it doesn't

First of all the word "Godhead" means "God hood, the state or quality of being God".

Second that verse does not say the Mystery of the Godhead.

Third if it did, the rest of the verse seems to explain that mystery

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Indeed, but as we see in life, it is a mystery to most folks.(thats my point).

Re: Jesus....Not God?
 

Yea, I was wanting more explanation on how Jesus became god during the resurrection. That's something I've never heard before and I need more info on that to know how to argue its wrong.