Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Show us where you read, that Jesus is the WORD.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Which came first, God or the Word?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Verse 2 is a false translation...the word HE is not the actual translation. The words "the same"are the correct translation (KJV). You are using one of those "fake" bibles here bro...


If you read the KJV, God, through His WORD(Logos) made all things, then Jesus was made(created) in verse 14.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

:lol

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

You just quoted me doing it. All you had to do was read vs 14-18

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Actually the pronoun is Houtos and is a masculine demonstrative pronoun.

Your KJV translates it "He" in several places
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

And here translates it as "The same" to refer to Nicodemus
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

This in not true. If it were true,
you would show me the verse,
that contained these words "Jesus is the Word".

It is not written in the bible, "Jesus is the Word".

How come you cannot admit this?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I follow you there, but "the same" is speaking of the Word(logos), or God in verse 2. Inserting "He" there gives it a "Jesus" slant and establishes a trinitarian point of view.

For instance...

In the beginning was the Word(Jesus), and the Word(Jesus) was with God, and the Word(Jesus) was God.

2 The same(Jesus) was in the beginning with God.


Now here is the other view...

In the beginning was the Word(LOGOS,Spoken Word), and the Word(SpokenWord) was with God, and the Word(Spoken Word) was God.

2 The same(referring to Spoken Word, masculine of course) was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word(Spoken Word) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God and his word are inseparable...His word "spoke" everything into existence, including Jesus. His word creates stuff as we see in Genesis.


Your Comments...?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

as I told you, You just quoted me quoting the verses you asked for. Do I really need to help you out here?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There. The topic John is talking about is Jesus Christ. The word was made flesh and that word made flesh is called Jesus in vs 17

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

"He" is not an insert. I already showed you how the KJV translates the same exact greek word as "He", because the Greek pronoun is Masculine.

Further more, the KJV also has

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I get what you are saying Prax, but can "He" refer to "the word" in verse 2 if it is replaced there? I always thought "logos" was an actual SPOKEN word, not a "HE", (like your word is not a "HE")

1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word(Logos) was with God, and the Word(Logos) was God.

2 The same(HE?) was in the beginning with God.

Can the Greek word (outos) here have a different meaning, similar to an English word having a different meaning according to the context? The KJV translators seemed to believe that in this case.

For instance..the word "WILL"...can you think of different meanings of the same word?

The OLD English translators of 1611 had a more accurate understanding of the old Greek language of the Received Text than we do today.



Their similarities of the 2 languages were far better understood in 1611...The modern day English/Greek translators could not hold a candle to the 1611 English/Greek translators as far as accuracy and understanding of Greek is concerned....

English words of Greek origin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article contains special characters. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols.
The Greek language has contributed to the English vocabulary in five main ways:

vernacular borrowings, transmitted through Vulgar Latin directly into Old English e.g. 'butter' (Old English butere < Latin butyrum < βούτυρον), or through French, e.g. 'ochre'.
learned borrowings from classical Greek, e.g. 'physics' (< Latin physica < Greek τὰ φυσικά);
a few borrowings via Arabic scientific and philosophical writing, e.g. 'alchemy' (< χημεία);
coinages in post-classical Latin or modern languages using classical Greek roots, e.g. 'telephone' (< τῆλε + φωνή) or a mixture of Greek and other roots, e.g. 'television' (< Greek τῆλε + English 'vision' < Latin visio); these are often shared among the modern European languages, including Modern Greek;
direct borrowings from Modern Greek, e.g. bouzouki.
The post-classical coinages are by far the most numerous of these

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

When I hear people arguing over Jesus' place in the Godhead, sometimes what they really want to know is:

1. Can anyone other than Jesus also be the word made flesh? This usually men's they have a spiritual leader they consider of equal importance,

2. can I become perfect and spiritual enough to equal Jesus?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

What was replaced? Nothing was replaced. Church is called "Her" and the rest of Jn 1 calls Jesus a HE using a completely different word than the one translated "That one" or "The same".

Logos is a Masculine noun and in Greek Nouns and the pronouns that modify them must agree in case, number and gender.

It's a masculine pronoun. That won't change.
No they didn't. In fact they understood far less than we do today because of more recent discoveries. Further more they were translating into an English language nobody speaks anymore today.

that is absolutely false. Biblical Greek was a dead language at the time. Not many fully understood it grammatically as far as translating it into English

As an example, Thayers Lexicon was said to have been outdated before it even went to press but by then it was too late.

And, as I pointed out, your KJV translates Autos as "HIM" in Jn 1

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

You are trying to argue the Logos is not a Person based on the reading "The same" instead of the masculine pronoun "He", yet the next two verses in the KJV uses the masculine pronoun "Him" 3 times

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

BTW Most of our language comes from Latin. Many Greek words we have influencing our language today comes through Latin. . Most languages over lap in similarities

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I want to make sure I understand you correctly,
as to what you believe.

You believe, this is Jesus Christ, that was in the beginning, was
with God, and was God, and made flesh.

True or false?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Thats exactly what I have been trying to get at with Prax here...Thanks bro.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

No what u had been getting at was originally to someone else about the KJV and its translation of the masculine word houto. Your argument is 2 fold that A) the Word can't be a person because the word should be "the same" and not "he" because a masculine pronoun like "he" indicates person hood.

But as I have shown your own translation calls the Word a "Him". How do you reconcile that?

Its your view that such pronouns would love indicate personhood not mine. So if that is your argument then what do you do with vs 4&5?

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

BTW I never said Jesus was with God. Its clear the Word was made flesh and John calls the Word made flesh "Jesus"

You were answered and with scriptures

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

A lot of times this is what it can be... but in the Oneness group, many (not all of course) argue over it because they feel this understanding makes them superior or better somehow than the rest of the believers who may not see it as they do.

I personally believe that there is no way that we can comprehend or completely understand the intricacies of the godhead. Paul saw things when he was caught up in the third heaven that he couldn't write down. I always wonder what he saw. God is not limited to our human abilities and understanding, and it is always helpful to remember that in these discussions.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Verse 4 and 5 are not concerning the LOGOS, only verse 1 and 2 are. I was trying to get us to talk about that. "The same", instead of "HE" is used correctly because it refers to the LOGOS. Things change a bit from verse 3 on.....Logos is not used again until verse 14.

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

Thanks, he and I really didnt know your position, that is why he asked the question. I have defined myself the best I could, but most folks, including yourself, dont get much into the detailed explanations of your beliefs. Maybe you have been doing this for so many years you have become tired of explaining your positions over and over again? It would be nice to see you elaborate on your various positions sometimes. I would like to read those posts you would do to see your beliefs from time to time.

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

What verse, did John call the Word, Jesus?
Post it for me, so I will know exactly, what verse,
you believe, John called the Word, Jesus.

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

My position was that your idea of pronouns is not supported by Greek grammar

The idea that a masculine pronoun proves something is a person is not true.

My Theological position is Oneness. Jesus is God.

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

I've posted it for you 2 times now.

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

You need to read what Im answering

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I meant 3&4 and yes they are referring to the Logos

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

The Noun Logos is masculine. The Pronouns in vs 2 is masculine. The Pronouns in vs 3 and 4 are also masculine

This "He" is "in Him was life and the Light of men"

That Light, John says was in the world

Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Joh 1:9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

Nobody that knows grammar, English or Greek would agree with you that verse 3 and 4 are not about the Logos

The reason Logos is not used is because we have pronouns. In Grammar Pronouns take the place of Nouns. So instead of saying "Logos Logos Logos, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, God, God, God, Peter, Peter Peter" over and over, in both English and Greek we replace nouns with pronouns.

That is basis grammar

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Ok Prax....My question is this.....if you could please elaborate on this passage and explain what the "word" actually is referring to here. We know it was in the beginning with God and it is God, you say it is masculine...is it simply an actual spoken word or something else I am not seeing?
BTW... I know you do not believe that the WORD here is Jesus(post 298). I am fine with the teaching that Jesus was there from the beginning, (but only in the thoughts of God). Thanks


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...(please elaborate)

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

No, you did not. Let the record show that you refused
to answer my question.

If you say otherwise then, I say to you, as I have said to God,
that you will not answer, this for me, as of yet.

What verse, did John call the Word, Jesus?
Post it for me, so I will know exactly, what verse,
you believe, John called the Word, Jesus.

Post it right here.

If you do not post that verse then, the record, will show
you did not answer the question.

Now you can lie and give all the excuses you like, but in the court of heaven, they will not tolerate your nonsense.

I am not required to even tell you this, but I wanted to warn you, so as to enter this evidence against you. That even being warned, and told, that charges were being brought forth in the court of heaven, against you, you still refused, to do that which is right, in the
sight of the Lord.

1 more time.

What verse, did John call the Word, Jesus?
Post it for me, so I will know exactly, what verse,
you believe, John called the Word, Jesus.

Post it right here.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

What the word "word" refers to is 100% irrelevant as far as the pronouns go. In the Greek the pronouns are all masculine and in the Greek Nouns and Pronouns must agree in case, number and Gender, not because it proves Personhood, but because that is just the way Greek grammar works

So the word Church in greek is feminine and takes a feminine pronoun

You say "You say it is masculine", WRONG. Greek says it's masculine. The noun Logos is a masculine noun. Every pronoun in those verses are also masculine because the noun is.

This is not me making it up. This is not me arguing theology. This is me telling you how Greek grammar works.

So when you say "You say it is masculine" you make it seem as though I am making a theological argument when in fact any one that knows Greek or at least has access to those that DO know Greek will know the noun Logos is a masculine noun as are all the pronouns.

I am not going to "elaborate" on theology until that matter is clear.

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

This is me ignoring you. Until you deal with the verses I've posted 3 times now instead of lying and telling me "No you did not" over and over. I won't even bother to read your crazy posts

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Prax, it is very clear, I learned that stuff in JR high.(I misspoke when I said.."you say it is masculine", I meant it as fact that it is masculine) I was sincere about the John 1:1 post #307. I really have never had a discussion with any oneness minister on exactly what "the word" is referring to. Folks just generally quote it, then more scriptures, then say..."there ya go". I think you are known as a "go to" guy here, so that is why I wanted your opinion. Thanks. (I sure dont want to ask the opinion from a preterist, I will end up with a bunch of types and anti-types...LOL)

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Well the usual Oneness reply is to interpret the word Logos in It's Greek usage to refer to a Plan or Idea in the mind of a play write.

Other uses was to see Logos as referring not to just a word but the thought behind that word as the expression of the Person himself

And also the word Logos can refer to the faculty of reason.

However I believe all these miss the point. John was a Palestinian Jew. He grew up going to Israeli schools and hearing the Torah read in Aramaic.

He would have been familiar then with Rabbinical teachings and Aramaic words and practices

One such practice was never to say the name of God (Yhwh), but to replace the name with other words (called Circumlocitions)

They would say "HaShem" or write "Adonai". In Rabbinical literature and paraphrases rather than write "Yhwh said Let there be light", they would use the word Memra instead of "Yhwh said" as a circumlocution.

When Greek speaking Jews or when Jews wanted to convey that same idea in Greek they used Logos.

This Memra theme overlapped with their personification of Wisdom as well as the idea of God dwelling (Shekina, glory, Light)

So in Jn 1, John is referring to the beginning of Creation where God spoke all things into being. the Logos is the Greek equivalent of Memra because this gospel was being written in Greek

In Judaism they saw God in a Tripart way. He was 1 "Person" but existed as God (transcendent), revealed by speaking (See Gen 3) and by sometimes the visible glory cloud dwelling with men.

In Jn we see the Logos and the various rabbinical themes of Light (Light is used sometimes for the Glory)

We see a sort of "Personification" of the Logos being "with" God

Further down we see a reference to the Shekina where "And the Logos was made flesh and DWELT among us"

Shekina comes from a Hebrew word meaning "dwelling" and is used often and translated as Taberrnacle.

The Greek word here for "Dwelt" can mean "tabernacled" and infact the word looks similar to the Hebrew word for "dwelling"

Once you realize that and that Jews wrote most of the bible or Gentiles influenced by Judaism, you can see these themes all over the place

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
Joh 1:2 The Word was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

Joh 1:14 Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory — the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

Notice the word Glory.

Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Memra refers to God speaking creatively in the beginning. This message both defines for the Greeks and the Jews that Jesus is God Himself and how.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Awesome post Prax...I will save it in my stuff and chew on that for a while. Thank you for elaborating. I never heard anyone get that detailed about John 1 before...God bless!

Re: Why Do You BBTWelieve Jesus is God?
 

We shall see how God judges this. You are going to lose.

I have stated in the court of heaven, that no where in the bible did John write the Word is Jesus, as you have stated here on this forum. If you do not prove it, This case will be decided against you.
Suit yourself. I will take it any way I can get it.

I like it when my adversary rolls over an quits.

But there again, John did not write, the Word, is Jesus.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Thanks and you are welcome.

Have you read "I AM" by bro Norris?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Tell me -----, how are you going to know, if
that, which, he reads into those verses, he quoted,
is the truth?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

No, I havent. is it available as an ebook?

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Brother, Prax did NOT say that the Word of John 1:1 is JESUS, he just commented on it exactly like I asked(using several of our brethren's points of view, including his own take on it). I am wanting to understand the fine points of theology and I must remain open minded of various opinions of others' to draw my own final conclusion. If someone can offer me a better point of view than my own, I may just adopt it into my beliefs. I suggest the same for you, unless you have mastered a certain subject. If so, by all means bring it to the table...I love truth and solid answers.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Alright let's ask Him.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Is, Jesus the Word, in John 1:1?

Yea or nay?