Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I'm your huckleberry. Let's read Rev 1 together.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Jesus and God are two different entities in Rev 1:1

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw

Jesus and God are two different entities in Rev 1:2

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus and God are two different entities in Rev 1:5-6

Summary: There are also no verses in the entire bible where Jesus says "pray to me"

The literal translation:

A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

Book says John was sent a message from God. Book says God sent it through his messenger. John says in the book he saw Jesus, who delivered a message.

Could you find something convoluted and confusing to prove your point because Rev 1 is pretty straightforward.

Here is another message: "no one may see me and live." Exodus 33

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Read the whole chapter.

Rev 1:8 KJV I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Alpha and Omega said He is the Almighty.

Later, John reports a voice he heard from behind him during his time on the Lord's day at Patmos. The voice is from the Son of man who is in the midst of candlesticks. They Son of man calls Himself the Alpha and Omega.

Rev 1:10-13 KJV I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw] seven golden candlesticks; (13) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

He continued to speak to John. It was Jesus.

You fail to ascertain that the only way in which Jesus could claim to be the Almighty and at the same time the Messenger of the Almighty is for God to manifest in flesh as that Son of man.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I did read the whole chapter. Did you?

Literal translation:

He did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John

So yes, this was God's message, and yes, Jesus was His messenger. Now you are taking the message itself, after this was clearly stated at the beginning of the book, and twisting it into making Jesus into something that He himself said he was not?

Pick another reference. This one doesn't match your position. I must say you must be having a bad day. You folks are usually a lot better at cherry-picking than this.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Literal translation says "messengers" not "angels". Same chapter says (referring to Jesus) :

"And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'"

"He" is referred to in the same chapter Verse 1 as "In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets"

The one sitting at His right hand, is, as Jesus Himself taught, Jesus

Pick another source. This one refers to Jesus as a Messenger. I've seen that somewhere else....hmmmmm

To review:

1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,

2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

This chapter of this book refers to Jesus as a messenger.

Next

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Pick another reference? No, you did not read anything I said nor the entire chapter./ Read it again. Jesus is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive. You totally skirted that point as though I never made it. How do you explain Jesus being the Alpha and Omega, who is also the Almighty?

Don't dodge it this time.

By the way, HIS ANGEL/MESSENGER is not referring to Jesus.

Try again.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

By the way, HIS ANGEL/MESSENGER is not referring to Jesus.

OK let's make this simple and go one teeny verse at a time. Because what you did is (1) said you read it then (2) you flat contradicted what you read. It is a big mistake to try to use Rev as a source to somehow prove Jesus and God are the same however.

REV 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John

OK, so if Jesus was not the messenger then why did you say that the "one like the Son of Man" who appeared to DELIVER the message to John was Jesus? I did not say it, you did.

It is Jesus who said (more than once )that he will sit on the right hand of God, and it is Jesus who has been given future rule over the earth.

In Rev 5:

and he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne.

Who took the scroll from the right hand of God in Rev 5?

Revelations notes that Jesus and God are two separate, different, distinct entities throughout the book.

I can get you dozens of references of this from other books. You have yet to show one.

Don't dodge it this time. How do you explain Jesus being the Alpha and Omega, who is also the Almighty?

Dodge? I said Jesus was delivering a message from God just like verse 1 said he was. He was not speaking for himself, he was speaking for God. That's what messengers do.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

John met Christ in the vision that opened up the rest of the visions to follow. Just because Jesus spoke to John in chapte 1 does not mean Jesus is the messenger referred to in the first verse. We read of angels talking to John throughout Revelation.

Rev 17:1 KJV And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 21:9 KJV And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 22:8-9 KJV And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. (9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

That's just three instances.

Jesus is given PRESENT rule over earth, by the way. He is on the right hand throne now. Eph 1:20; Mark 16:19.

Anyway, Jesus is not the one showing John all the visions and speaking to Him John all the time. Read all of Revelation and see for yourself.

"Revelations"? And you ask me to read the book again? It is REVELATION. Minor issue, but significant.

What is the nature of the two? I already showed you that Jesus says He is the Alpha and Omega the ALMIGHTY. There are TWO, but two whats? This is the very heart of the entire issue. No one denies TWO here. But to manifest in two different ways is saying there are TWO, but not TWO PERSONS.

I showed you ONE and you have yet to respond to it.

YOU DODGED MY POINT. You said NOTHING about why He is called the ALMIGHTY in one verse and then says He died and rose again in another of the same chapter.

How man Alpha and Omegas are there?????

Answer this time.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Robert..Oneness simply do not understand the ANOINTING Jesus had.They mistake it for DEITY. Jesus was a man FULL of God and He did the miracles as Peter said...Acts 2:22( God was WITH him) Acts 10:38 (How God anointed)

Even our friend Nicodemus said in John 3 "no man can do these things unless God was with him" even He understood Jesus was NOT God

Mark 12:28-32- the scribe understood Jesus was NOT God...this scribe even AGREED with Jesus when Jesus told the scribe "there is no other God but HE" not me..

Matthew 16 Jesus asked point blank- WHO do people say I am?..He would get a different answer today than what He was told..notice not one person even thought Jesus was Messiah..the best they pegged him was another Prophet yet people today say the Jews understood Jesus was God?

Jesus was not on trial for claiming to be God..

Both Oneness and Trinitarian cannot accept a perfect sinless MAN (Anthropos) but they will accept the fact that it was a perfect sinless MAN who started the who sin problem according to Romans 5.

Jesus testified HE was ANTHROPOS John 8:40
Jesus testified He was the Son of Man,Son of God not one time did He ever say I am God.As important as it is He would have made it clear.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

I have responded twice and said the same thing both times. This message was from God, through his messenger, Jesus, like Verse 1 said it was.
The message was delivered to 7 churches. Once the message was delivered, the book of Rev went on to other things and other visions, so tying other chapters about other things has nothing to do with chapter 1. You can bounce all over the bible but that is what chapter 1 says and that is what happened.

About dodging questions: Though I didn't ask about chapter 17, or chapter 21, or chapter 22, or Eph, or Mark - I asked a very simple question about Rev Chapter 5. Who took the scroll out of the right hand of God on the throne. Since YOU dodged my question I will make a simple cut and paste and ask you again.

And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;
and I saw a strong messenger crying with a great voice, `Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose the seals of it?'
and no one was able in the heaven, nor upon the earth, nor under the earth, to open the scroll, nor to behold it.
And I was weeping much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it,
and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;
and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth,
and he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne.

Is this not speaking of Jesus? He certainly is on no throne in Chapter 5 is he? Someone else was, but not he. Again - separate. God is on the throne, Jesus is in a very high, important elevated place but alas not where you say he is and not who you say he was.

Do you have any more questions or are you going to continue to take my very clear answers, listing passages that have nothing to do with the one under discussion, and accuse me of dodging.

22:8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things

Rev 22:9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

John is standing with JESUS in Rev 22:9. It is JESUS who instructed him not to bow before him but before God



10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:

12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;

In Rev 22 Jesus is also referred to as a messenger and just like in his ministry on earth instructs John not to bow to him but to bow to God (who is evidently somewhere else)

How many alphas and omegas are there? The book doesn't say. What it does say is that Jesus is a messenger in the first chapter and says it again in the last chapter.

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 

Yes and never once responded to what I proposed initially.

No, that is not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Find me ONE SCHOLAR who agrees with you. ONE. Quote him./ Look at these:

ALBERT BARNES

By his angel - That is, an angel was employed to cause these scenic representations to pass before the mind of the apostle. The communication was not made directly to him, but was through the medium of a heavenly messenger employed for this purpose. Thus, in Rev_22:6, it is said, “And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Compare Rev_1:8-9 of that chapter. There is frequent allusion in the Scriptures to the fact that angels have been employed as agents in making known the divine will, or in the revelations which have been made to people. Thus, in Act_7:53, it is said, “Who have received the law by the disposition of angels.” “For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast,” etc., Heb_2:2; “and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator,” Gal_3:19. Compare the notes on Act_7:38, Act_7:53. There is almost no further reference to the agency of the angel employed for this service in the book, and there is no distinct specification of what he did, or of his great agency in the case.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ; that Christ gave it to his angel; that this angel showed it to John; and that John sent it to the Churches. Thus we find it came from God to Christ, from Christ to the angel, from the angel to John, and from John to the Church.

JOHN GILL

and he sent, and signified it by his angel unto servant John; he who is the Lord of angels, and to whom they are ministering spirits, sometimes sent one angel and sometimes another; and by various emblems, signs, and visions, represented and set before John, a faithful servant, and a beloved disciple of his, the whole of this revelation.

Ad inifinitum...

It was not a message to 7 churches. It was seven message to seven churches and not the overall revelation the first verse speaks about. You are extremely biaqsed in this in obvious efforts to maintain in your own mind that Jesus is not God.

It was asked why we believe Jesus is God. I explained that JESUS IS ALPHA AND OMEGA and is ALMIGHTY. Case closed. It mjust be a clincher since yhou are avoiding that like a hot potato.

Anything about the Lamb going to God, etc., is all taken into consideration AFTER one realizes that JESUS IS BOTH THE ALPHA AND OMEGA AND ALMIGHTY. Why do you refuse to touch this?

I know why.

Oh now this is royal! "The book does not say how many Alpha an Omegas there are????????????????????"

LOL

Ok, is that the same answer you wil give for the question of hi,many ALMIGHTIES are there?