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Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
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Really good study habits. |
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Polytheist. |
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Do you know where the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus came from? The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican from their looting for centuries and no clue is known where it originated. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash biin in a monastery on Mt Sinai used to start fires. Quote:
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There is only one Alpha and Omega, J. Good grief. |
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
Sorry, guys. But too much plain old dishonesty here.
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several years ago i took a personal journey to define God for myself; was Christ God, etc. Long story short, i don't think it's a good idea to try to define God too much in what can only be human terms; the preserved stories of the common misperceptions of Christ in His day--which each of us must own at least one of--strongly indicate to me that we are not equipped to do this. it is the equivalent of the trinny/uni thing, in a different dress. the worst side effect is that, having arrived at what you feel is an accurate definition of Christ, let alone God--Whom you may only approach through Christ anyway--you will inevitably feel called to defend this definition; to devolve into a fatal--on some level--skirmish that surely resembles nothing so much as a group of four year olds discussing where babies come from, on some level. God is the head of Christ; ergo, Christ is not God; on some level. Unshrivel your pov's a bit, guys; i think you are all correct in some sense. i find it a powerful testimony that the Qur'an, which insists on One God, also insists that those who do not follow Christ are doomed. "God is the head of Christ" is a poetically wonderful way to express the relationship, imo. peace to you!
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It's your book not mine oh profit. It's so full of holes it leaks everywhere. |
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
:lol ok then
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Bye. Again. Desiderius Erasmus was a "Christian humanist" who collected Greek (and Latin) New Testament manuscripts and compared and edited them, verse by verse, selecting what he considered to be the best variant passages, until he had compiled what came to be known as the "textus receptus." Early English translations of the Bible, were based on his "textus receptus." Although the title page of The King James Bible boasted that it was "newly translated out of the original tongues," the work was actually a revision of The Bishop's Bible of 1568, which was a revision of The Great Bible of 1539, which was itself based on three previous English translations from the early 1500s. Sir Walter Raleigh: "King Elizabeth" had been succeeded by "Queen James." I will leave "textus receptus" to folks like you and "queen" James. If there is dishonesty here it did not come from me. The thorough Calvinism of the Geneva Bible (more evident in the marginal notes than in the translation itself) offended the high-church party of the Church of England, to which almost all of its bishops subscribed. They associated Calvinism with Presbyterianism, which sought to replace government of the church by bishops (Episcopalian) with government by lay elders. However, they were aware that the Great Bible of 1539 —which was the only version then legally authorized for use in Anglican worship—was severely deficient; in that much of the Old Testament and Apocrypha was translated from the Latin Vulgate, rather than from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. In an attempt to replace the objectionable Geneva translation, they circulated one of their own, which became known as the Bishops' Bible. The translators of the King James Version were instructed to take the 1602 edition of the Bishops' Bible as their basis, although several other existing translations were taken into account Under the direction of Queen Elizabeth I, who had no love for the Puritans and their Calvinistic doctrine, the archbishop of Canterbury, Matthew Parker, himself a scholar, took on the task of coming up with an alternative to the Geneva Bible. Portions of the text were assigned to various revisers, the majority of whom were bishops. In spite of their prejudice against the Geneva Bible because of its blatant advocacy of lay elders and church leaders—as opposed to the clergy-led paradigm embraced by the Anglican hierarchy—the Geneva Bible was the basis for the Bishops’ Bible, although the offending anti-episcopal notes were removed. No doubt this is partly why the Bishops’ Bible never achieved the support among the common people enjoyed by the Geneva Bible. Surah 5:13-15 But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did. O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah. This was written before all of these revisions were made. This was true then and is true now. |
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God. God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God. No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar. All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one. |
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The famous passage: John 10:30. What does ONE (Greek word HEN) mean? John 11 52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one. If this word word (HEN - ONE) means what you say it means then that means that somehow the people of God are all the same individual. It does not. John 17: (Interestingly enough, Jesus who you say is proven to be God in the book of John, is praying to God in John 17 but not a one of you have ever explained this or brought this up) 11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we Same word - HEN - ONE - does NOT mean that each disciple is the same as the other disciple. It is used to show sameness in purpose/beliefs/feelings/goals (which I believe we all agree that Jesus was same in purpose with God) Again in John 17 - here Jesus himself explains what (HEN - ONE) means which is much closer to what I believe it means than what you believe it means: 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. ONE in US? The disciples were gods also? By your logic they are (speaking of peril yah? but by mine they are not) 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me. Summary: "I and my father are one" does not mean that they are the same entity. It means that they are two different distinct entities with completely common goals and purposes - this does not make Jesus God any more than becoming ONE makes the disciples Peter the same as the Disciple John. Another example: 1 Cor 6:16 16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.' 17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit; Being joined as ONE to your wife which is the reference here does not make you a wife any more than being joined as ONE to God makes you a god. With that said I believe I saw you post He will judge all men Not what your book says. Book says many will judge. I will let you find the passages because I think you (not just you, all of you) need to study it more. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? |
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And "His messenger" refers to the angel..the same angel John says God and Jesus sent. |
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"'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."… |
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One: From Revelation 6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Two: Jesus, from Luke (but there is more than one example of Jesus saying this) But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." Three: From Daniel "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. Four: From Mark 19S o then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. There are many more of these examples. Specific, concise, no ABC "helpful" $10 interpretation of a two-bit profit needed. Separate entities, in separate physical locations, at the same point in time. That took 5 minutes. Do you need some more examples? Innocently wondering. |
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I think I've struck gold with asking the question of whether Jesus should be worshipped. The initial answer is yes but if you pry they will say men should not be worshipped and that Jesus is a man (thus implying Jesus should not be worshipped). This puts them in a bit of pickle because they must say Jesus should be worshipped but also that Jesus should not be worshipped. I've not came across anyone proposing a good solution to that yet. |
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Was Jesus worshipped? In the "queen" James version he was, in the literal translation he wasn't. These people like to point to passages like Matt 28:9 QJV: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. OH look see Jesus was worshipped - our book is infallible and He's God! Literal: and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!' and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him. Bowing is not worship. Next. Fun for the day: Adding "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" to every single sentence posted (since that's not in there either) |
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What exactly would their mindset be at this phenomenon standing before their very eyes saying, "All Hail= be of good cheer/rejoice"? Also, these are the Bible versions in Matthew 28:9 which say "worshipped": KJ21 ASV AMP CEB CEV ERV ESV ESVUK EXB GNV GW GNT HCSB Phillips JUB AKJV LEB TLB MSG NOG NASB NCV NET NIRV NIV NKJV NLV NLT NRSVA NRSVACE NRSVCE RSV RSVCE VOICE WEB WYC |
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15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;' 16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.' 17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.' Are you using this story to prove Jesus is God? I'll put that one in the long, growing list of references that prove my point. |
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You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God." What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are: "I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11 "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6 "I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT. Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would. "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad" "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4) |
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"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." When God speaks, he speaks to the source. In Genesis 1, He speaks to the elements, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself..." The ground is the plant source. When He speaks to and of Himself, He is speaking to the source. That is why He can emphatically say unto the "son", "They throne, O God..." He is God, the father and the son. "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15 Jesus Christ is presented here as the image of God, the invisible. "Image" in Greek, Eikon always assumes a prototype (the original form from which it is drawn), not merely a thing it resembles (e.g., the reflection of the sun in the water is an eikon). Paul was telling the Colossians here that Jesus Christ has a "prototype", God the Father who is invisible. - Spiros Zodhiates "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7 The phrase in verse seven, "took upon him the form of a servant," should be understood as "having taken..." which denotes that He became as a servant in man's likeness at His incarnation, and that he did not possess that form before that time. His purpose in coming as a man in order to die for the sins of mankind. The key idea to consider is that Christ was and is who He claimed to be - God. - Spiros Zodhiates |
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
Guys, I think that they are seeing that we are saying (regarding a dual nature concept).Is we are saying that Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature(that would make his divine nature distinct from the Fathers divine nature). That would make 2 dieties somehow. Then we blend it into one deity. (Father and Son are one)
That seems to be the concept we are portraying. If we took the divine nature concept off the table(because its not biblical), then we can say Jesus was truly human and the other point of view could see things more clearly. |
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By way of example, this is how I have always understood it, from II Cor 4:16 - "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day." Paul is making a distinction of body and spirit, but not a separation. And, BTW, this example is not the same as the Nestorian view in which they term "son" dealing with the humanity and ignoring the deity. You cannot separate the two, especially after reading Isaiah 9:6. |
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nice!
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Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. Jesus has a God, the same God we have. Please add Hebrews 1 to the growing list of references and sources that declare so. |
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Just because he is making a distinction between spirit and flesh in verse 9, doesn't mean He is also making a separation. He makes the distinction throughout the NT, but there is never a separation. How can there be a separation when He says in Isaiah 42:8 - " I am the Lord/self existent or eternal: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." He doesn't give His "glory/weight" to anyone. Consequently, the Jews, traditionally, believed the angels praised God upon his throne, mediated God's revelation to men, attended to God's will, and gave aid to the people of God. Jesus Christ was superior to angels (Hebrew 1:4), having obtained a more excellent name, not by inheritance does he have a more excellent name, but as God naturally and essentially.... God manifest in the flesh, but He obtains the inheritance by His sufferings. |
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.... What I am saying to clarify, is Jesus had a HUMAN spirit of his own. His human spirit was (not) divine. These guys think the "dual nature" concept that is taught is... Jesus had a Divine spirit of his own, which in turn shows 2 divine spirits.(Jesus' and the Fathers') |
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There is absolutely no wiggle room with this verse..Jesus was made LIKE his brethen in all things,did any of his brethen have a dual nature?..How about Moses? Moses told that a Prophet LIKE him God would raise up!.nothing at all about Moses being more than human.. |
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How could He fully be like Moses and the brethren as Moses and all the brethren had both a mother and a father in conception? Obviously, the "flesh" was the commonality. |
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Same book, Chapter 4: 12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; 13 and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things [are] naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning. 14 Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession, 15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner Skip to James 1 For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; Skip to Genesis 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. Summary: Skipping around your book could really create a mess. I believe I'll stick with my own path. Next time I post, it will be from Saudi. It has been an enlightening discussion. Gotta fold the laptop! God Bless Texas! |
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The answer to http://mikeblume.com/ and the paypal link II Cor 2:17 - NIRV "Unlike many people, we aren’t selling God’s word to make money. In fact, it is just the opposite. Because of Christ we speak honestly before God. We speak like people God has sent." |
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God’s Word is only confusing if we don’t study it out or have it revealed to us by God. The clue to the context of “tempted”, in the book of James, would be found in verse 12. There are two meanings defined in this one chapter: 1. Enticement/solicitation to sin 2. Testing/proving. “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried , he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” James 1:12 (KJV) “ Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.” James 1:12 (NIV) Temptation - Peirasmos - a putting to proof. From the root word, peirazō - to test. Peirazo has several meanings, one being “enticed”. In the context of James 1:12, it can only mean persevering under trial. James 1:14 clearly speaks of enticing and soliciting to sin. “But every man is tempted , when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed .” James 1:14 Lust: epithumia From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after). "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said , Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:1 How do we know that Abraham understood that God was not soliciting him to sin? “And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship , and come again to you.” Genesis 22:5 He knew it was a test of faith and not an enticement to sin. “That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth , though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Trial: dokimion Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1382; a testing; by implication trustworthiness: “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15 Infirmities: astheneia From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness. “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;” Hebrews 7:26 Conclusion: “God cannot be tempted” would be correct as there is nothing in God that could persuade Him to sin. “Neither does He tempt any man” would be correct as a solicitation to sin and a trial from providential situation or circumstances are two very different things. |
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