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mfblume 05-20-2014 06:25 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1314166)
Here you are OH Profit of Gospel - do your A/B/C logic on the corrected chapter based on earlier versions of Revelation:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...01&version=NIV

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” (no Almighty, no Alpha, no Omega, no ABC)
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

OOPS huh? Kindly share your next point, thanks. Don't say I didn't warn you though.

If the text doesn't suit you, get another version until you find what you want.

Really good study habits.

mfblume 05-20-2014 06:26 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1314161)
A couple of dead Greek letters friend. If your entire belief system is based on this while ignoring direct descriptions that place Jesus in one place (near God) and God in a completely different place (descriptions that place Jesus exactly where Jesus himself said he would be) the panic you seem to demonstrate while begging someone else to just "believe this as I do" is probably warranted. I was waiting for you to come up with something else but you seem stuck so I'll help you out.

What you do not seem to know is this:

Several later manuscripts repeat "I am the Alpha and Omega" in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus

I truly hope that your entire belief system does not rest on these words supposedly "stated by Jesus" that do not actually exist in the original manuscripts. If you reference the original manuscripts, it is actually your argument and not mine that falls flat. Remove these words from 1:11 - my position stands, what happens to yours?

But you knew that, because you get paid to know that - right? Me - if I bought your teaching I'd be asking for my money back. Go back to Rev 22 and read what happens to those who change even a word of that book?

You like Catholic Manuscripts I see. Hmmm...

Polytheist.

mfblume 05-20-2014 06:28 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1314158)
Revelations 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This verse speaks of the same person who said in Revelation 1:11

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

And who said in Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

This same one who is alpha and omega who lives and was dead also is called the beginning of the creation of God. How can you claim "the beginning of the creation of God is the almighty?" How can you say the created is the creator?

Coupled together with the fact that He is the Almighty, all this is very clear. God manifested in flesh while remaining God at the same time. But we said that dozens of times.

mfblume 05-20-2014 06:32 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1314163)
Except the original manuscripts

Original Manuscripts. Are you serious? There are no extant original manuscripts! The ones you cite are Catholic manuscripts form the Alexandiran line that are so questionable because the line of those who "preserved" them felt led of God to edit them. And they are not ORIGINAL but alleged to be OLDEST. Far cry from original.

Do you know where the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus came from? The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican from their looting for centuries and no clue is known where it originated. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash biin in a monastery on Mt Sinai used to start fires.


Quote:

So you really need, as I told you days ago, to find another book besides Revelation to make your point.
You would like that, wouldn't you. But then there's John 1:1, 14, Isaiah 9:6. Hebrews 1 calls the Son GOD. I could go on and on. But you cannot deal with the text as is in the KJV in Rev 1. You still have not explained it. You dismiss it when it is not in favour with your belief. How dangerous is that?

mfblume 05-20-2014 06:33 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1314142)
Jfrog says I am a white man and an american. Mfblume says I am a white man. Since mfblume said he was a white man and since a white man is an american then logically mfblume must be an american.... That's what your saying.

Misrepresentation. You cannot deal with what I am actually proposing.

There is only one Alpha and Omega, J. Good grief.

mfblume 05-20-2014 06:41 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Sorry, guys. But too much plain old dishonesty here.

shazeep 05-20-2014 06:55 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
several years ago i took a personal journey to define God for myself; was Christ God, etc. Long story short, i don't think it's a good idea to try to define God too much in what can only be human terms; the preserved stories of the common misperceptions of Christ in His day--which each of us must own at least one of--strongly indicate to me that we are not equipped to do this. it is the equivalent of the trinny/uni thing, in a different dress. the worst side effect is that, having arrived at what you feel is an accurate definition of Christ, let alone God--Whom you may only approach through Christ anyway--you will inevitably feel called to defend this definition; to devolve into a fatal--on some level--skirmish that surely resembles nothing so much as a group of four year olds discussing where babies come from, on some level. God is the head of Christ; ergo, Christ is not God; on some level. Unshrivel your pov's a bit, guys; i think you are all correct in some sense. i find it a powerful testimony that the Qur'an, which insists on One God, also insists that those who do not follow Christ are doomed. "God is the head of Christ" is a poetically wonderful way to express the relationship, imo. peace to you!

jfrog 05-20-2014 10:16 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1314302)
Misrepresentation. You cannot deal with what I am actually proposing.

There is only one Alpha and Omega, J. Good grief.

You serious? I can do that too. There's two alpha and omega's. Good grief mfblume.

Walks_in_islam 05-21-2014 07:01 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1314170)
1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” 33 says the Lord God – the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come – the All-Powerful! 34

33 tc The shorter reading “Omega” (ὦ, w) has superior ms evidence ({א1 A C 1611}) to the longer reading which includes “the beginning and the end” (ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος or ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος, arch kai telo" or Jh arch kai to telo"), found in א*,2 1854 2050 2329 2351 ÏA lat bo. There is little reason why a scribe would have deleted the words, but their clarifying value and the fact that they harmonize with 21:6 indicate that they are a secondary addition to the text.

34 tn On this word BDAG 755 s.v. παντοκράτωρ states, “the Almighty, All-Powerful, Omnipotent (One) only of God…(ὁ) κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ π. …Rv 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7; 21:22.”

https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Revelation+1

1:8 are God's words, not the words of Jesus

Walks_in_islam 05-21-2014 07:04 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1314301)
Original Manuscripts. Are you serious? There are no extant original manuscripts! The ones you cite are Catholic manuscripts form the Alexandiran line that are so questionable because the line of those who "preserved" them felt led of God to edit them. And they are not ORIGINAL but alleged to be OLDEST. Far cry from original.

Do you know where the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus came from? The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican from their looting for centuries and no clue is known where it originated. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash biin in a monastery on Mt Sinai used to start fires.




You would like that, wouldn't you. But then there's John 1:1, 14, Isaiah 9:6. Hebrews 1 calls the Son GOD. I could go on and on. But you cannot deal with the text as is in the KJV in Rev 1. You still have not explained it. You dismiss it when it is not in favour with your belief. How dangerous is that?

Are YOU serious? You peddle $10 messages on a website from a book collated by the Council of Nicea, cannot shake me from my belief that there is just the One God, and then accuse me of being a catholic and polytheist?

It's your book not mine oh profit. It's so full of holes it leaks everywhere.

shazeep 05-22-2014 06:06 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
:lol ok then

Walks_in_islam 05-23-2014 06:06 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1314305)
Sorry, guys. But too much plain old dishonesty here.

Yup - the oldest texts of Revelation don't really support your view. You probably should stick with "Queen" James.

Bye. Again.

Desiderius Erasmus was a "Christian humanist" who collected Greek (and Latin) New Testament manuscripts and compared and edited them, verse by verse, selecting what he considered to be the best variant passages, until he had compiled what came to be known as the "textus receptus." Early English translations of the Bible, were based on his "textus receptus."

Although the title page of The King James Bible boasted that it was "newly translated out of the original tongues," the work was actually a revision of The Bishop's Bible of 1568, which was a revision of The Great Bible of 1539, which was itself based on three previous English translations from the early 1500s.


Sir Walter Raleigh: "King Elizabeth" had been succeeded by "Queen James."

I will leave "textus receptus" to folks like you and "queen" James. If there is dishonesty here it did not come from me.

The thorough Calvinism of the Geneva Bible (more evident in the marginal notes than in the translation itself) offended the high-church party of the Church of England, to which almost all of its bishops subscribed. They associated Calvinism with Presbyterianism, which sought to replace government of the church by bishops (Episcopalian) with government by lay elders. However, they were aware that the Great Bible of 1539 —which was the only version then legally authorized for use in Anglican worship—was severely deficient; in that much of the Old Testament and Apocrypha was translated from the Latin Vulgate, rather than from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. In an attempt to replace the objectionable Geneva translation, they circulated one of their own, which became known as the Bishops' Bible.

The translators of the King James Version were instructed to take the 1602 edition of the Bishops' Bible as their basis, although several other existing translations were taken into account

Under the direction of Queen Elizabeth I, who had no love for the Puritans and their Calvinistic doctrine, the archbishop of Canterbury, Matthew Parker, himself a scholar, took on the task of coming up with an alternative to the Geneva Bible. Portions of the text were assigned to various revisers, the majority of whom were bishops. In spite of their prejudice against the Geneva Bible because of its blatant advocacy of lay elders and church leaders—as opposed to the clergy-led paradigm embraced by the Anglican hierarchy—the Geneva Bible was the basis for the Bishops’ Bible, although the offending anti-episcopal notes were removed. No doubt this is partly why the Bishops’ Bible never achieved the support among the common people enjoyed by the Geneva Bible.

Surah 5:13-15 But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did. O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah.

This was written before all of these revisions were made. This was true then and is true now.

Aquila 05-23-2014 10:05 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Walks_in_islam 05-23-2014 07:28 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1314682)
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.


The famous passage: John 10:30.

What does ONE (Greek word HEN) mean?

John 11

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one. If this word word (HEN - ONE) means what you say it means then that means that somehow the people of God are all the same individual. It does not.

John 17: (Interestingly enough, Jesus who you say is proven to be God in the book of John, is praying to God in John 17 but not a one of you have ever explained this or brought this up)

11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we

Same word - HEN - ONE - does NOT mean that each disciple is the same as the other disciple. It is used to show sameness in purpose/beliefs/feelings/goals (which I believe we all agree that Jesus was same in purpose with God)

Again in John 17 - here Jesus himself explains what (HEN - ONE) means which is much closer to what I believe it means than what you believe it means:

21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. ONE in US? The disciples were gods also? By your logic they are (speaking of peril yah? but by mine they are not)

22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

Summary:

"I and my father are one" does not mean that they are the same entity. It means that they are two different distinct entities with completely common goals and purposes - this does not make Jesus God any more than becoming ONE makes the disciples Peter the same as the Disciple John.

Another example: 1 Cor 6:16

16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.'

17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;

Being joined as ONE to your wife which is the reference here does not make you a wife any more than being joined as ONE to God makes you a god.

With that said I believe I saw you post He will judge all men

Not what your book says. Book says many will judge. I will let you find the passages because I think you (not just you, all of you) need to study it more.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Praxeas 05-23-2014 07:33 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1313932)
We already went through this Prax

Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, (God gave to Jesus? But but but they are the same) to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, `These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly

Rev 22:16 I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

The verses in the last chapter mirror the verses in the first chapter. They still refer to Jesus and God as two separate entities and you can always take the time to not skip what the "preacher" skipped and explain why (2) physical visions of Heaven put Jesus on the spot where He himself said He would be, in one sitting on the right hand of God and in the other taking a scroll out of God's hand and I sure do have another to toss out but I was thinking one of you, since you're edumacated and I'm not, would sure bring it up.

Nobody denies God gave something to Jesus nor that they are distinct somehow. BTW none of your verses implies or says "separate".

And "His messenger" refers to the angel..the same angel John says God and Jesus sent.

SRM 05-24-2014 12:35 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1314682)
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Where is the OT foundation for the ideal God becoming his own Messiah? Did Moses REALLY teach such an ideal?

mfblume 05-24-2014 02:14 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1314746)
Nobody denies God gave something to Jesus nor that they are distinct somehow. BTW none of your verses implies or says "separate".

And "His messenger" refers to the angel..the same angel John says God and Jesus sent.

Some folks just cannot comprehend what Oneness proposes, and they think they are shooting it down. :-/

mfblume 05-24-2014 02:15 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1314326)
You serious? I can do that too. There's two alpha and omega's. Good grief mfblume.

Polytheist. lol

Walks_in_islam 05-24-2014 10:38 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1314872)
Polytheist. lol

Profit. Moneychanger.

"'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."…

Walks_in_islam 05-24-2014 10:43 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1314746)
Nobody denies God gave something to Jesus nor that they are distinct somehow. BTW none of your verses implies or says "separate".

And "His messenger" refers to the angel..the same angel John says God and Jesus sent.

Really Prax? Did you read them all?

One: From Revelation

6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Two: Jesus, from Luke (but there is more than one example of Jesus saying this)

But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Three: From Daniel

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Four: From Mark

19S o then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

There are many more of these examples. Specific, concise, no ABC "helpful" $10 interpretation of a two-bit profit needed.

Separate entities, in separate physical locations, at the same point in time. That took 5 minutes. Do you need some more examples? Innocently wondering.

jfrog 05-25-2014 12:17 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1314918)
Really Prax? Did you read them all?

One: From Revelation

6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Two: Jesus, from Luke (but there is more than one example of Jesus saying this)

But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Three: From Daniel

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Four: From Mark

19S o then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

There are many more of these examples. Specific, concise, no ABC "helpful" $10 interpretation of a two-bit profit needed.

Separate entities, in separate physical locations, at the same point in time. That took 5 minutes. Do you need some more examples? Innocently wondering.

And Prax says, well duh, God can be as many different entities in as many different places at one time that he wants... I'm just saying that if you are going to attack oneness, then showing two separate entities is not enough. Showing Jesus is a man is not enough. You have to show that there is some property related to being both man and God that cannot be answered with that view.

I think I've struck gold with asking the question of whether Jesus should be worshipped. The initial answer is yes but if you pry they will say men should not be worshipped and that Jesus is a man (thus implying Jesus should not be worshipped). This puts them in a bit of pickle because they must say Jesus should be worshipped but also that Jesus should not be worshipped. I've not came across anyone proposing a good solution to that yet.

Walks_in_islam 05-25-2014 08:17 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1314931)
And Prax says, well duh, God can be as many different entities in as many different places at one time that he wants... I'm just saying that if you are going to attack oneness, then showing two separate entities is not enough. Showing Jesus is a man is not enough. You have to show that there is some property related to being both man and God that cannot be answered with that view.

I think I've struck gold with asking the question of whether Jesus should be worshipped. The initial answer is yes but if you pry they will say men should not be worshipped and that Jesus is a man (thus implying Jesus should not be worshipped). This puts them in a bit of pickle because they must say Jesus should be worshipped but also that Jesus should not be worshipped. I've not came across anyone proposing a good solution to that yet.

I am just contented that I do not have to "A" - "B" - "C" through the explanation of who Jesus was and what he was sent to do.

Was Jesus worshipped? In the "queen" James version he was, in the literal translation he wasn't. These people like to point to passages like Matt 28:9

QJV: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

OH look see Jesus was worshipped - our book is infallible and He's God!

Literal: and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!' and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.

Bowing is not worship. Next.


Fun for the day: Adding "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" to every single sentence posted (since that's not in there either)

Pressing-On 05-25-2014 12:38 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1314957)
I am just contented that I do not have to "A" - "B" - "C" through the explanation of who Jesus was and what he was sent to do.

Was Jesus worshipped? In the "queen" James version he was, in the literal translation he wasn't. These people like to point to passages like Matt 28:9

QJV: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

OH look see Jesus was worshipped - our book is infallible and He's God!

Literal: and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!' and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.

Bowing is not worship. Next.


Fun for the day: Adding "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" to every single sentence posted (since that's not in there either)

I am wondering your thoughts on these women who prostrated themselves before the man they recognize as Jesus Christ who they had also seen nailed to a cross, who also died and was wrapped and laid in a tomb.

What exactly would their mindset be at this phenomenon standing before their very eyes saying, "All Hail= be of good cheer/rejoice"?

Also, these are the Bible versions in Matthew 28:9 which say "worshipped":

KJ21
ASV
AMP
CEB
CEV
ERV
ESV
ESVUK
EXB
GNV
GW
GNT
HCSB
Phillips
JUB
AKJV
LEB
TLB
MSG
NOG
NASB
NCV
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLV
NLT
NRSVA
NRSVACE
NRSVCE
RSV
RSVCE
VOICE
WEB
WYC

Walks_in_islam 05-25-2014 07:15 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1314995)
I am wondering your thoughts on these women who prostrated themselves before the man they recognize as Jesus Christ who they had also seen nailed to a cross, who also died and was wrapped and laid in a tomb.

What exactly would their mindset be at this phenomenon standing before their very eyes saying, "All Hail= be of good cheer/rejoice"?

Also, these are the Bible versions in Matthew 28:9 which say "worshipped":

KJ21
ASV
AMP
CEB
CEV
ERV
ESV
ESVUK
EXB
GNV
GW
GNT
HCSB
Phillips
JUB
AKJV
LEB
TLB
MSG
NOG
NASB
NCV
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLV
NLT
NRSVA
NRSVACE
NRSVCE
RSV
RSVCE
VOICE
WEB
WYC

Are you referring to this story from John 20?

15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;'

16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.'

17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Are you using this story to prove Jesus is God? I'll put that one in the long, growing list of references that prove my point.

Pressing-On 05-25-2014 09:19 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1315025)
Are you referring to this story from John 20?

15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;'

16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.'

17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Are you using this story to prove Jesus is God? I'll put that one in the long, growing list of references that prove my point.

Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

jfrog 05-25-2014 10:53 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1315040)
Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

Pressing-On 05-26-2014 05:49 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1315048)
Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

That wasn't the point of my post.

Pressing-On 05-26-2014 08:18 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1315048)
Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

Please note "who" is speaking in Hebrews 1. God is saying:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

When God speaks, he speaks to the source. In Genesis 1, He speaks to the elements, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself..."

The ground is the plant source.

When He speaks to and of Himself, He is speaking to the source. That is why He can emphatically say unto the "son", "They throne, O God..."

He is God, the father and the son.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is presented here as the image of God, the invisible. "Image" in Greek, Eikon always assumes a prototype (the original form from which it is drawn), not merely a thing it resembles (e.g., the reflection of the sun in the water is an eikon). Paul was telling the Colossians here that Jesus Christ has a "prototype", God the Father who is invisible. - Spiros Zodhiates

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7

The phrase in verse seven, "took upon him the form of a servant," should be understood as "having taken..." which denotes that He became as a servant in man's likeness at His incarnation, and that he did not possess that form before that time. His purpose in coming as a man in order to die for the sins of mankind. The key idea to consider is that Christ was and is who He claimed to be - God. - Spiros Zodhiates

Sean 05-26-2014 09:43 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Guys, I think that they are seeing that we are saying (regarding a dual nature concept).Is we are saying that Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature(that would make his divine nature distinct from the Fathers divine nature). That would make 2 dieties somehow. Then we blend it into one deity. (Father and Son are one)

That seems to be the concept we are portraying.


If we took the divine nature concept off the table(because its not biblical), then we can say Jesus was truly human and the other point of view could see things more clearly.

Pressing-On 05-26-2014 10:07 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1315093)
Guys, I think that they are seeing that we are saying (regarding a dual nature concept).Is we are saying that Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature(that would make his divine nature distinct from the Fathers divine nature). That would make 2 dieties somehow. Then we blend it into one deity. (Father and Son are one)

That seems to be the concept we are portraying.


If we took the divine nature concept off the table(because its not biblical), then we can say Jesus was truly human and the other point of view could see things more clearly.

It would be more correct to say that we can make a distinction between the two natures of Jesus, divine and human, but that we cannot make a separation.

By way of example, this is how I have always understood it, from II Cor 4:16 - "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day."

Paul is making a distinction of body and spirit, but not a separation.

And, BTW, this example is not the same as the Nestorian view in which they term "son" dealing with the humanity and ignoring the deity.

You cannot separate the two, especially after reading Isaiah 9:6.

shazeep 05-26-2014 10:53 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
nice!

Walks_in_islam 05-27-2014 04:52 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1315040)
Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

No I noticed what Jesus said. Right there. Without bouncing around from place to place to unrelated verses.

Walks_in_islam 05-27-2014 04:55 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1315084)
Please note "who" is speaking in Hebrews 1. God is saying:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

When God speaks, he speaks to the source. In Genesis 1, He speaks to the elements, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself..."

The ground is the plant source.

When He speaks to and of Himself, He is speaking to the source. That is why He can emphatically say unto the "son", "They throne, O God..."

He is God, the father and the son.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is presented here as the image of God, the invisible. "Image" in Greek, Eikon always assumes a prototype (the original form from which it is drawn), not merely a thing it resembles (e.g., the reflection of the sun in the water is an eikon). Paul was telling the Colossians here that Jesus Christ has a "prototype", God the Father who is invisible. - Spiros Zodhiates

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7

The phrase in verse seven, "took upon him the form of a servant," should be understood as "having taken..." which denotes that He became as a servant in man's likeness at His incarnation, and that he did not possess that form before that time. His purpose in coming as a man in order to die for the sins of mankind. The key idea to consider is that Christ was and is who He claimed to be - God. - Spiros Zodhiates

The "who" speaking in Hebrews 1 is not "God" it is the one who penned the letter. Did you notice that right after that he says of the Son:

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.


Jesus has a God, the same God we have. Please add Hebrews 1 to the growing list of references and sources that declare so.

Pressing-On 05-27-2014 10:50 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1315217)
The "who" speaking in Hebrews 1 is not "God" it is the one who penned the letter. Did you notice that right after that he says of the Son:

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.


Jesus has a God, the same God we have. Please add Hebrews 1 to the growing list of references and sources that declare so.

Actually, Jesus Christ is being addressed as God, which only supports and does not conflict with Isaiah 9:6.

Just because he is making a distinction between spirit and flesh in verse 9, doesn't mean He is also making a separation. He makes the distinction throughout the NT, but there is never a separation.

How can there be a separation when He says in Isaiah 42:8 - " I am the Lord/self existent or eternal: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

He doesn't give His "glory/weight" to anyone.

Consequently, the Jews, traditionally, believed the angels praised God upon his throne, mediated God's revelation to men, attended to God's will, and gave aid to the people of God.

Jesus Christ was superior to angels (Hebrew 1:4), having obtained a more excellent name, not by inheritance does he have a more excellent name, but as God naturally and essentially.... God manifest in the flesh, but He obtains the inheritance by His sufferings.

Sean 05-27-2014 05:26 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1315098)
It would be more correct to say that we can make a distinction between the two natures of Jesus, divine and human, but that we cannot make a separation.

By way of example, this is how I have always understood it, from II Cor 4:16 - "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day."

Paul is making a distinction of body and spirit, but not a separation.

And, BTW, this example is not the same as the Nestorian view in which they term "son" dealing with the humanity and ignoring the deity.

You cannot separate the two, especially after reading Isaiah 9:6.


....



What I am saying to clarify, is Jesus had a HUMAN spirit of his own. His human spirit was (not) divine. These guys think the "dual nature" concept that is taught is... Jesus had a Divine spirit of his own, which in turn shows 2 divine spirits.(Jesus' and the Fathers')

SRM 05-27-2014 05:36 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1315305)
....



What I am saying to clarify, is Jesus had a HUMAN spirit of his own. His human spirit was (not) divine. These guys think the "dual nature" concept that is taught is... Jesus had a Divine spirit of his own, which in turn shows 2 divine spirits.(Jesus' and the Fathers')

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make

There is absolutely no wiggle room with this verse..Jesus was made LIKE his brethen in all things,did any of his brethen have a dual nature?..How about Moses? Moses told that a Prophet LIKE him God would raise up!.nothing at all about Moses being more than human..

Pressing-On 05-27-2014 06:50 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SRM (Post 1315306)
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make

There is absolutely no wiggle room with this verse..Jesus was made LIKE his brethen in all things,did any of his brethen have a dual nature?..How about Moses? Moses told that a Prophet LIKE him God would raise up!.nothing at all about Moses being more than human..

"Like unto His brethren" in the sense that He was a descendent of Abraham - Heb 2:16 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

How could He fully be like Moses and the brethren as Moses and all the brethren had both a mother and a father in conception?

Obviously, the "flesh" was the commonality.

Walks_in_islam 05-28-2014 07:20 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1315248)
Actually, Jesus Christ is being addressed as God, which only supports and does not conflict with Isaiah 9:6.

Just because he is making a distinction between spirit and flesh in verse 9, doesn't mean He is also making a separation. He makes the distinction throughout the NT, but there is never a separation.

How can there be a separation when He says in Isaiah 42:8 - " I am the Lord/self existent or eternal: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

He doesn't give His "glory/weight" to anyone.

Consequently, the Jews, traditionally, believed the angels praised God upon his throne, mediated God's revelation to men, attended to God's will, and gave aid to the people of God.

Jesus Christ was superior to angels (Hebrew 1:4), having obtained a more excellent name, not by inheritance does he have a more excellent name, but as God naturally and essentially.... God manifest in the flesh, but He obtains the inheritance by His sufferings.

Nobody here questions the superiority of Jesus to the angels. Doesn't make him God.

Same book, Chapter 4:

12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

13 and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things [are] naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning.

14 Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession,

15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner

Skip to James 1

For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Skip to Genesis 22

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Summary: Skipping around your book could really create a mess. I believe I'll stick with my own path.

Next time I post, it will be from Saudi. It has been an enlightening discussion. Gotta fold the laptop!

God Bless Texas!

Walks_in_islam 05-28-2014 07:53 PM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1314305)
Sorry, guys. But too much plain old dishonesty here.

OH yeah before I fly out I forgot something:

The answer to http://mikeblume.com/ and the paypal link

II Cor 2:17 - NIRV

"Unlike many people, we aren’t selling God’s word to make money. In fact, it is just the opposite. Because of Christ we speak honestly before God. We speak like people God has sent."

Pressing-On 05-29-2014 09:17 AM

Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1315416)
Nobody here questions the superiority of Jesus to the angels. Doesn't make him God.

Same book, Chapter 4:

12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

13 and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things [are] naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning.

14 Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession,

15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner

Skip to James 1

For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Skip to Genesis 22

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Summary: Skipping around your book could really create a mess. I believe I'll stick with my own path.

Next time I post, it will be from Saudi. It has been an enlightening discussion. Gotta fold the laptop!

God Bless Texas!


God’s Word is only confusing if we don’t study it out or have it revealed to us by God.

The clue to the context of “tempted”, in the book of James, would be found in verse 12.

There are two meanings defined in this one chapter:

1. Enticement/solicitation to sin
2. Testing/proving.

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried , he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” James 1:12 (KJV)

“ Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.” James 1:12 (NIV)

Temptation - Peirasmos - a putting to proof. From the root word, peirazō - to test.

Peirazo has several meanings, one being “enticed”. In the context of James 1:12, it can only mean persevering under trial.

James 1:14 clearly speaks of enticing and soliciting to sin.

“But every man is tempted , when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed .” James 1:14

Lust: epithumia
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).



"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said , Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:1

How do we know that Abraham understood that God was not soliciting him to sin?

“And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship , and come again to you.” Genesis 22:5

He knew it was a test of faith and not an enticement to sin.



“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth , though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Trial: dokimion

Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1382; a testing; by implication trustworthiness:

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15

Infirmities: astheneia
From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

“For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;” Hebrews 7:26

Conclusion: “God cannot be tempted” would be correct as there is nothing in God that could persuade Him to sin.

“Neither does He tempt any man” would be correct as a solicitation to sin and a trial from providential situation or circumstances are two very different things.


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