Apostolic Friends Forum - Jesus....Not God?

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Re: Jesus....Not God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1316927)

Im confused

No doubt. His claims are

Jesus from birth to death was only a man
Jesus after the resurrection was god
Jesus preexisted
And more....

All this doesn't make sense to me either

Re: Jesus....Not God?

:lol trying to define God rarely does...

Re: Jesus....Not God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1316906)

Regards

Re: Jesus....Not God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1316906)

Christ is not non-existent before birth. He did not exist AS a man. But He did exist as God (the Logos)

Bernard does not teach Christ was just a man who became God

Thats the part where he and I differ

Ok

Most OPs say that but the Divine nature was not merely INSIDE another Person nor inside a body (Jesus is not a body). The Divine nature was a Part of His Person as the Son. Deity and Humanity in Unity. That is what Bernard teaches, that Jesus was fully man and fully God before the resurrection and after His birth

Bernard teaches the divine nature of Jesus is actually the spirit of the Father(I believe that) Some teach that Jesus had his OWN (individual) divine nature. I dont agree with that.

Nobody teaches Jesus had His own individual Divine nature. That's called Polytheism. You teach Jesus merely had the Father's Divine nature inside Him. Bernard teaches the Divine nature of the Father is the Son's Divine nature too

Right...that leads me back to Unitarianism. You have two persons. One is God and the other is not. The DIFFERENCE is your other person becomes God later on.

But unitarianism specifically teaches that Jesus NEVER was or NEVER is God.
Thats a HUGE difference than what I say. This was only for 33 years of his existence. But now he is THE MIGHTY GOD.

I stipulated that..see where I said "DIFFERENCE". Also you don't seem to believe He was God either until the resurrection. But if that is not true then that just adds to the confusion Jfrog and I are having trying to understand you

You either have Binitarianism post resurrection or polytheism post resurrection

Whatever that is...LOL...the masters have a label for all the subordinates these days...LOL. All I say is that God is One IN Jesus, exactly like you guys teach today. But I only have a problem with the 33 years he lived prior to the resurrection that you guys term as a God/man. Not one person of you guys can tell me I am wrong when I say the Father was inside of Jesus in those 33 years, and that Jesus had the Holy Ghost. You guys believe EXACTLY like I do there.

What "that" is, is Two Divine persons instead of three OR two Gods instead of One

No that is NOT exactly like us guys teach today. You seem to believe Jesus and the Father are two different Persons..

And that is enough for me to say what you and Bernard believe are way far apart from each other.

Only a few minor differences

Even a few more differences just adds to my assertion that you and Bernard are not close at all

You see, THAT little fact that Bernard believes God became human is the proof that Bernard believes Jesus preexisted.

He preexisted AS the Creator, as God.

Exactly, Prax...As the FATHER, then the father entered into His only begotten son when he was conceived.

No NOT exactly. The Father did not ENTER into a Son. The Father BECAME the Son. Incarnate AS the Son and..you said "exactly" but that means you are agreeing with me and contradicting yourself. You said Bernard denies Jesus preexisted and when I said Bernard teaches Jesus preexisted you say "Exactly"...*confused*

In fact I'd argue that your position is philosophically and biblically impossible or you have two Gods for the following reason

How can you have 2 gods when the role of the son will cease, which I believe(along with Bernard). That God, the Father will be all in all. (ALL ALONE) some day.

I don't have two Gods. Bernard does not have two Gods. I said YOU have two Gods and I said WHY that may be true below

When you understand what NATURE means, you will understand this. Nature refers to a set of qualities that is specific or unique to a class of beings. In God's case HE is alone in His class not like Human beings who are many within that class.

And every being has nature even non living beings. God's nature includes Eternality, defined as uncreated and without beginning

It appears you have an individual that was created when God put that seed in Mary.

Further, part of God's nature is that He is the first cause, the Creator. Jesus becoming the Creator is a logical contradiction since He did not create and did not exist at or before Creation. So He can't have the exact same nature as the Father. He can't be the same BEING as the Father. He is someone else with a god like nature maybe but it's logically impossible to argue He has the exact same nature as the Father.

Maybe it is impossible to argue the exact same nature as you just stated. My whole problem with the (god /nature) idea, it is not explained with Bible verses, just human logic. Like I said, I "parroted" that for 20 years, but it never seemed oneness to me. Using the sft chart, on the page of the "who was Jesus Christ", I now go from left to right explaining how on the LEFT, Jesus was Totally Human(prayed)...And on the RIGHT, The Father inside him did the miracles(answered prayers)...IS THAT INCORRECT?

Well if they don't have the exact same nature then they are NOT the same God.

Yes it is explained with bible verses. The problem is you don't understand bible verses, bible words or english words as it pertains to these issues

Study the greek word THEOTES translated "Godhead" in the KJV. Study Phil 2 and the Morphe of God.

Right, Sounds like two persons

Nope

Then that adds to the confusion I am having with what you write

Are Father and Son the same One Person?

Uh..wait. That is confusing. Are you arguing he could not have been the Everlasting Father? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. It sounds like you just argued He IS the Everlasting Father because the Father was INSIDE His Body and then argued he could not have been the Everlasting Father because that would have meant the everlasting Father died.

Good, you saw that...He was considered as a BABY, as the Everlasting Father, because the Everlasting Father INDWELLED him.

Wait...ok so as a CHILD before the resurrection He was the Everlasting Father and the Mighty God? But you said he wasn't!

He was a TOTAL Human Being with the Everlasting Father inside of him.

Sounds like two persons again and a contradiction. He was God and the Father or He was just a human being with God inside him?

When Jesus was dying, simply, the Everlasting Father that was inside him "DEPARTED", when Jesus said "FATHER, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME"

And then he stopped being God? But you said for 33 years he wasn't God, he merely had God inside Him.

BTW that verse calls that CHILD both Everlasting Father and Might God..but you say he was not (while he was a child) but was only God after he was an adult and was resurrected

No sir, I considered Him God a month ago, if you remember in our earlier discourse

What? No you said He was NOT God when he was a child. I didn't say anything bout what you said a month ago. You said He was NOT God until the resurrection. What in the world are you talking about "a month ago"??? *confused*

(the part that I told you, if I was there on the scene, if he was doing the miracles and saying the words he said and did, I would consider him...my God). But, I see it as, during the 33 years, God was inside of a human being(that is what "qualified" him as God), to bring Glory to Himself(God).2 Cor. 5:19... When that human being(Jesus) was murdered, God raised Him up from the Dead and Indwells him again..this time in complete fullness.

*confused*...was Jesus God before the resurrection or not? I just said you did not believe Jesus was God before the resurrection and now it seems you are telling me Im wrong about what you believe...Wow

Then finally, as the end comes, the role of the Son will cease, as Bernard says.

Was Jesus God or not before the resurrection?

BTW I disagree it's having the Father INSIDE His body that makes Him the Father. That would make us the Father as well

Not true, Jesus was the one God chose to reveal Himself through to all mankind, not us.

Revealing Himself through Jesus? Does not make Jesus God but does sound like you have two persons again *confused*

For the record we ALL believe He was totally human while here but he was not just indwelled by God

The same Father that indwells Him before the resurrection? You said earlier it was the indwelling Father that made Jesus "Everlasting Father". Im very confused at what you believe and the problem I have is you usually become angry at me and a little belligerent towards me when this happens.

Prax, the only reason I get that way is when you "marginalize" me into a corner by labeling me a Unitarian.

I told you before I am not marginalizing you. It's not a slur...It's not an insult. It's a classification that does not warrant someone else being belligerant

I see it as a "power play' to get folks to block out in their mind my point of view.

You are seeing it wrong. If I called you a human, because you are one, would you get upset?

I proved to all that I was not a Unitarian, and you dont care what I say, you just keep saying it. You have a habit of lumping folks together with "vaguely" similar view points and labeling them as the same. I like when you get into the questions and test my point of view, line by line.

I told you VERY clearly there was an EXCEPTION or a DIFFERENCE between you and Unitarianism. It's very close. The fact is what you say is VERY CONFUSING. I have NO IDEA what you are saying because you seem to contradict yourself and use words in a confusing manner.

Im trying to understand WHAT you believe. It sounds very similiar to what Unitarians and Arians believe in that you have TWO PERSONS One is God and one is not. The DIFFERENCE is with Unitarianism is one of them later BECOMES God. That is the second time I say that

But you said Jesus IS God. Now you are saying Jesus is simply the house of God...*confused*

If Jesus is the Temple(house) of God....He is definitely God

So the House is whatever is inside of the House?

But God is inside us and we are called the Temple of God. So that makes us God

Confused even more. I don't see how God's name becomes "Jesus" just because God is living in His Body. Also it sounds like you are arguing Jesus is NOT God again but has God living in His body

God, never revealed His saving name to mankind until the annunciation in Matt. 1 "thou shall call his name Jesus".
Hebrews 1:4 says Jesus got his name by inheritance. The name actually belonged to God for Jesus to inherited it. The name of the Father is JESUS, not yet to be revealed to mankind until The New Testament began.

That doesn't explain how God's name becomes "Jesus" by being INSIDE Jesus

What's the point in quoting someone's opinion of what Bernard teaches?

What was your point?

no you're not

Regards

Have Fun

Re: Jesus....Not God?

And that is enough for me to say what you and Bernard believe are way far apart from each other.

Nope, when I read his book, I only hit a snag on great occasion.

Only a few minor differences

Even a few more differences just adds to my assertion that you and Bernard are not close at all

You see, THAT little fact that Bernard believes God became human is the proof that Bernard believes Jesus preexisted.

He preexisted AS the Creator, as God.

Nope, Bernard does not say Jesus preexisted.

Exactly, Prax...As the FATHER, then the father entered into His only begotten son when he was conceived.

No NOT exactly. The Father did not ENTER into a Son. The Father BECAME the Son. Incarnate AS the Son and..you said "exactly" but that means you are agreeing with me and contradicting yourself. You said Bernard denies Jesus preexisted and when I said Bernard teaches Jesus preexisted you say "Exactly"...*confused*

You said the father became the son Prax...you got to be kidding me...GOD BECAME A MAN???
The bible says God was MANIFESTED in the flesh! or REVEALED IN THE FLESH. 2 Cor. explains this that GOD WAS IN(INSIDE) CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF(GOD) God did not become a ma Prax. He gave birth to a man and DWELLED in that man!

In fact I'd argue that your position is philosophically and biblically impossible or you have two Gods for the following reason

You are the one that is on the ropes here

How can you have 2 gods when the role of the son will cease, which I believe(along with Bernard). That God, the Father will be all in all. (ALL ALONE) some day.

I don't have two Gods. Bernard does not have two Gods. I said YOU have two Gods and I said WHY that may be true below

I have one God inside one man. Thats not 2 Gods

When you understand what NATURE means, you will understand this. Nature refers to a set of qualities that is specific or unique to a class of beings. In God's case HE is alone in His class not like Human beings who are many within that class.

And every being has nature even non living beings. God's nature includes Eternality, defined as uncreated and without beginning

It appears you have an individual that was created when God put that seed in Mary.

Exactly, if Jesus preexisted in any way shape or form before conception, you have 2 Gods.

Further, part of God's nature is that He is the first cause, the Creator. Jesus becoming the Creator is a logical contradiction since He did not create and did not exist at or before Creation. So He can't have the exact same nature as the Father. He can't be the same BEING as the Father. He is someone else with a god like nature maybe but it's logically impossible to argue He has the exact same nature as the Father.

Nope, Jesus was as human as you or I am. There is no such thing as a God/Nature.

Maybe it is impossible to argue the exact same nature as you just stated. My whole problem with the (god /nature) idea, it is not explained with Bible verses, just human logic. Like I said, I "parroted" that for 20 years, but it never seemed oneness to me. Using the sft chart, on the page of the "who was Jesus Christ", I now go from left to right explaining how on the LEFT, Jesus was Totally Human(prayed)...And on the RIGHT, The Father inside him did the miracles(answered prayers)...IS THAT INCORRECT?

Well if they don't have the exact same nature then they are NOT the same God.

Again, there is no such thing as a God/nature. It is completely fabricated to help explain the unexplainable.

Yes it is explained with bible verses. The problem is you don't understand bible verses, bible words or english words as it pertains to these issues

Study the greek word THEOTES translated "Godhead" in the KJV. Study Phil 2 and the Morphe of God.

Right, Sounds like two persons

Nope

Then that adds to the confusion I am having with what you write

Are Father and Son the same One Person?

Yes, because the Father was INSIDE the son.

Uh..wait. That is confusing. Are you arguing he could not have been the Everlasting Father? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. It sounds like you just argued He IS the Everlasting Father because the Father was INSIDE His Body and then argued he could not have been the Everlasting Father because that would have meant the everlasting Father died.

What "qualified" Jesus as the everlasting Father as a BABY, is the Everlasting Father "possessing" his body with the Holy Ghost. Luke 4:1

Good, you saw that...He was considered as a BABY, as the Everlasting Father, because the Everlasting Father INDWELLED him.

Wait...ok so as a CHILD before the resurrection He was the Everlasting Father and the Mighty God? But you said he wasn't!

He was a TOTAL Human Being with the Everlasting Father inside of him.

Sounds like two persons again and a contradiction. He was God and the Father or He was just a human being with God inside him?

God in man is One God and one man, not 2 persons in the Godhead...nice try.

When Jesus was dying, simply, the Everlasting Father that was inside him "DEPARTED", when Jesus said "FATHER, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME"

And then he stopped being God? But you said for 33 years he wasn't God, he merely had God inside Him.

The only way Jesus can be considered God when on earth was when the Father was in Him, doing the works through him and speaking through him. He never claimed to be anything, but what the Father gave him the ability to do.

BTW that verse calls that CHILD both Everlasting Father and Might God..but you say he was not (while he was a child) but was only God after he was an adult and was resurrected

No I did not, The father inside him made him a CHILD/FATHER...

No sir, I considered Him God a month ago, if you remember in our earlier discourse

What? No you said He was NOT God when he was a child. I didn't say anything bout what you said a month ago. You said He was NOT God until the resurrection. What in the world are you talking about "a month ago"??? *confused*

Short term memory loss?

(the part that I told you, if I was there on the scene, if he was doing the miracles and saying the words he said and did, I would consider him...my God). But, I see it as, during the 33 years, God was inside of a human being(that is what "qualified" him as God), to bring Glory to Himself(God).2 Cor. 5:19... When that human being(Jesus) was murdered, God raised Him up from the Dead and Indwells him again..this time in complete fullness.

*confused*...was Jesus God before the resurrection or not? I just said you did not believe Jesus was God before the resurrection and now it seems you are telling me Im wrong about what you believe...Wow

Jesus called the Father, his God. If you were there this is what he would tell you...John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus was totally human and actually had a God....When he walked the earth for 33 years, His God was INSIDE him.

Then finally, as the end comes, the role of the Son will cease, as Bernard says.

Was Jesus God or not before the resurrection?

He was totally human, with Almighty God inside him. God(the Father) inside him "doeth the works"

BTW I disagree it's having the Father INSIDE His body that makes Him the Father. That would make us the Father as well

Not true, Jesus was the one God chose to reveal Himself through to all mankind, not us.

Revealing Himself through Jesus? Does not make Jesus God but does sound like you have two persons again *confused*
God was manifested(revealed) in the flesh(his only BEGOTTEN SON, Jesus)

For the record we ALL believe He was totally human while here but he was not just indwelled by God

Y[COLOR="lime"]ou are completely wrong prax, Jesus was ABSOLUTELY indwelled by the Father!!!
[/COLOR]

The same Father that indwells Him before the resurrection? You said earlier it was the indwelling Father that made Jesus "Everlasting Father". Im very confused at what you believe and the problem I have is you usually become angry at me and a little belligerent towards me when this happens.

Prax, the only reason I get that way is when you "marginalize" me into a corner by labeling me a Unitarian.

I told you before I am not marginalizing you. It's not a slur...It's not an insult. It's a classification that does not warrant someone else being belligerant

I see it as a "power play' to get folks to block out in their mind my point of view.

You are seeing it wrong. If I called you a human, because you are one, would you get upset?

I know exactly what you are doing

I proved to all that I was not a Unitarian, and you dont care what I say, you just keep saying it. You have a habit of lumping folks together with "vaguely" similar view points and labeling them as the same. I like when you get into the questions and test my point of view, line by line.

I told you VERY clearly there was an EXCEPTION or a DIFFERENCE between you and Unitarianism. It's very close. The fact is what you say is VERY CONFUSING. I have NO IDEA what you are saying because you seem to contradict yourself and use words in a confusing manner.

What I am saying is crystal clear. You just dont want to acknowledge any concept that is not parroted by the organization.

Im trying to understand WHAT you believe. It sounds very similiar to what Unitarians and Arians believe in that you have TWO PERSONS One is God and one is not. The DIFFERENCE is with Unitarianism is one of them later BECOMES God. That is the second time I say that

There you go again...same ol, same ol.

But you said Jesus IS God. Now you are saying Jesus is simply the house of God...*confused*

Jesus is God because of the Indwelling Father

If Jesus is the Temple(house) of God....He is definitely God

So the House is whatever is inside of the House?

But God is inside us and we are called the Temple of God. So that makes us God

Nice try, anything to confuse the reader. You and they see what is happening here(having to repeat the same thing over and over)

Confused even more. I don't see how God's name becomes "Jesus" just because God is living in His Body. Also it sounds like you are arguing Jesus is NOT God again but has God living in His body

You saw my explanation, I got it from Bro. Adam Lopez of the Apostolics in Union City CA....to follow..

God, never revealed His saving name to mankind until the annunciation in Matt. 1 "thou shall call his name Jesus".
Hebrews 1:4 says Jesus got his name by inheritance. The name actually belonged to God for Jesus to inherited it. The name of the Father is JESUS, not yet to be revealed to mankind until The New Testament began.

That doesn't explain how God's name becomes "Jesus" by being INSIDE Jesus

It tells us the Name of JESUS was Inherited from the ONE that previously owned it...GOD

What's the point in quoting someone's opinion of what Bernard teaches?

Because his book could not be copied and pasted. I had to get an exerpt from another site. I have the actual book also.

What was your point?

no you're not

Re: Jesus....Not God?

Sorry, guys this got way too big and I had to get it down to 12,000 characters. I had to delete the top 3rd to make it fit. I should of done it in 2 parts. Bummer

Re: Jesus....Not God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1316929)

No doubt. His claims are

Jesus from birth to death was only a man
Jesus after the resurrection was god
Jesus preexisted
And more....

All this doesn't make sense to me either

JESUS DID NOT PREEXIST...just for the record

Re: Jesus....Not God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1316957)

JESUS DID NOT PREEXIST...just for the record

Must I find the quote?

Re: Jesus....Not God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1316958)

Must I find the quote?

I give up. I have no idea what the man is saying. And "for the record". I said that he believes Father and Son are two different persons and he said "nope"...meaning they are the same Person so I don't see how he can say Jesus did not preexist *confused*