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-   -   Why Do You Believe Jesus is God? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=45936)

Walks_in_islam 05-05-2014 09:43 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1312027)
Yes and never once responded to what I proposed initially.



No, that is not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Find me ONE SCHOLAR who agrees with you. ONE. Quote him./ Look at these:

ALBERT BARNES
By his angel - That is, an angel was employed to cause these scenic representations to pass before the mind of the apostle. The communication was not made directly to him, but was through the medium of a heavenly messenger employed for this purpose. Thus, in Rev_22:6, it is said, “And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Compare Rev_1:8-9 of that chapter. There is frequent allusion in the Scriptures to the fact that angels have been employed as agents in making known the divine will, or in the revelations which have been made to people. Thus, in Act_7:53, it is said, “Who have received the law by the disposition of angels.” “For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast,” etc., Heb_2:2; “and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator,” Gal_3:19. Compare the notes on Act_7:38, Act_7:53. There is almost no further reference to the agency of the angel employed for this service in the book, and there is no distinct specification of what he did, or of his great agency in the case.
ADAM CLARKE:
It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ; that Christ gave it to his angel; that this angel showed it to John; and that John sent it to the Churches. Thus we find it came from God to Christ, from Christ to the angel, from the angel to John, and from John to the Church.
JOHN GILL
and he sent, and signified it by his angel unto servant John; he who is the Lord of angels, and to whom they are ministering spirits, sometimes sent one angel and sometimes another; and by various emblems, signs, and visions, represented and set before John, a faithful servant, and a beloved disciple of his, the whole of this revelation.
Ad inifinitum...



It was not a message to 7 churches. It was seven message to seven churches and not the overall revelation the first verse speaks about. You are extremely biaqsed in this in obvious efforts to maintain in your own mind that Jesus is not God.



It was asked why we believe Jesus is God. I explained that JESUS IS ALPHA AND OMEGA and is ALMIGHTY. Case closed. It mjust be a clincher since yhou are avoiding that like a hot potato.

Anything about the Lamb going to God, etc., is all taken into consideration AFTER one realizes that JESUS IS BOTH THE ALPHA AND OMEGA AND ALMIGHTY. Why do you refuse to touch this?

I know why.



Oh now this is royal! "The book does not say how many Alpha an Omegas there are????????????????????"

LOL

Ok, is that the same answer you wil give for the question of hi,many ALMIGHTIES are there?
Never looked at the 'queen' James version. Your book says that's an abomination. Did you read that part?

Was using the literal translation. Literal translation says messenger.

I was making fun of you when I said that the book doesn't say how many alphas and omegas there are. Know why? Let me summarize your logic.

You brought up Rev 22 I did not. John is writing about a messenger that he is standing with. You said that the messenger was not Jesus 3 posts back because John starts to worship him and the messenger says (verse 8-9) "do not bow to me bow to God". Let's review.

22:8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things

Rev 22:9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Then the same messenger in verse 13 says:

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.

So you come back and say: "I am the Alpha and Omega" means "I am God" and this is your basis for concluding "Jesus is God" but 4 verses up in the same chapter John is specifically advised not to do this.

So yes, I am making fun of your logic. Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, the same "Alpha and Omega" said "I am a fellow servant of you and your brethren the prophets and you need to bow before God, not me" and what makes it really funny is that it was said only (4) verses before your "great God insight".

As to hot potatoes I would guess that chapter 5 is one since you are avoiding that question like one.

If your bible was good enough for you then you would not need Adam Clark or John Gill or Albert Barnes to explain it. The words explain themselves. You need to go back and tell Adam Clark and John Gill and Albert Barnes that Jesus said:

18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

and then consider these words for yourself? Nobody here asked "what do you think it says" - the question was what does it say

The LAMB took a scroll from the right hand of God on the throne. The LAMB was not on the throne. Was this Jesus or not? Answer?

CJManzell 05-06-2014 01:34 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherEastman (Post 1308242)
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

And the Word (which was God) was MADE FLESH. See John 1 ;)
John, Chapter 14, 12: Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.

What works did you do
that are greater than the works
Jesus did?

As according to God that you would do,
if you believe upon His name.

Walks_in_islam 05-06-2014 07:26 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Says it again in Chapter 1. Verse 6 says "Jesus made us kinds and priests to HIS God and HIS Father", then goes on to say "I am the Alpha and Omega" only two short verses later

So Who is HIS God spoken of here? HIS God is the one on the throne, and who is also OUR God

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

8. I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming -- the Almighty.'

Again: Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, one must have a pretty dim switch to conclude from reading about the God and Father of Jesus that this says "Jesus is God". In fact, there is not verse of scripture anywhere in your book that says it, which is why you need scholars to build a convoluted argument about it.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

That's what I said it says. Thanks for finding a "scholar" for me.

Walks_in_islam 05-06-2014 05:13 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Innocently wondering if you have another chapter you want to discuss?

Perhaps another scholar to explain that "yes this says that but send a love offering and I will sell you (oops tell you) what it REALLY means"

Told you Rev is the wrong book. Pick another one, any one, and let's hash that one out too. I gotta idea. New Testament isn't working out - let's use the Old.

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power

I guess you can't "approach" God and be "given" authority and be "led" anywere if you ARE God can you?
Back to the New:

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Oops. New matches the Old. Matches Revelations. If you are sitting at a right hand you are not occupying a throne though. Also matches the Quran, but shhhhhhh we don't talk about that in here. If you ARE the mighty one you can't "sit at the right hand of the Mighty One" can you? Call the scholars!

mfblume 05-06-2014 05:52 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312050)
Never looked at the 'queen' James version. Your book says that's an abomination. Did you read that part?
...Waiting to read something sensible here.

Quote:

Was using the literal translation. Literal translation says messenger.
Everyone knows ANGEL means MESSENGER. That changes nothing to make your argument being correct. Who cares what version we read? They all give the same point.

Quote:
I was making fun of you when I said that the book doesn't say how many alphas and omegas there are. Know why? Let me summarize your logic.

You brought up Rev 22 I did not.
I brought up the references to the Alpha and Omega, in Rev 1. You will not respond to that. It is MY FULL REASON for proving Jesus is God.

Quote:
John is writing about a messenger that he is standing with. You said that the messenger was not Jesus 3 posts back because John starts to worship him and the messenger says (verse 8-9) "do not bow to me bow to God". Let's review.

22:8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things

Rev 22:9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Then the same messenger in verse 13 says:

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.
No it is not the same messenger. lol. Prove to me it is the same messenger. I showed you scholars' explanations of the reference to the angel/messenger, and all of them agree the angel/messenger is one of the many angels/messengers such as the ones I showed you were one of the seven angels/messengers came to John.

Quote:
So you come back and say: "I am the Alpha and Omega" means "I am God" and this is your basis for concluding "Jesus is God" but 4 verses up in the same chapter John is specifically advised not to do this.
John was NOT TALKING TO JESUS when the angel was speaking to him. You have this so confused it is really weird. Like I said, show me one witness from a scholar's writings to prove the MESSENGER is Jesus in Revelation 1. You cannot just make these things up and expect everyone to agree with you just because you say it is so.

Quote:
So yes, I am making fun of your logic. Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, the same "Alpha and Omega" said "I am a fellow servant of you and your brethren the prophets and you need to bow before God, not me" and what makes it really funny is that it was said only (4) verses before your "great God insight".
No, the ALPHA AND OMEGA never said such a thing.

You want to know who the messenger angel of Rev 22 is? You havbe to go back to chapter 21 to see the specific angel who was sent. And look what he is called:

Quote:
Rev 21:9 KJV And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Quote:
As to hot potatoes I would guess that chapter 5 is one since you are avoiding that question like one.
Chapter 5 is an issue altogether apart from the issue I raised. Now, since I raised the issue of the Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 CALLING HIMSELF THE ALMIGHTY as my main argument, I am talking about the Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 CALLING HIMSELF THE ALMIGHTY. THAT IS MY ARGUMENT.

You refuse to deal with it. You have not yet dealt with the Alpha and Omega saying He is the ALMIGHTY!

So read it again.

Why is the Alpha and Omega shown to call Himself the ALMIGHTY and then call Himself the one who died and is alive?

Quote:
If your bible was good enough for you then you would not need Adam Clark or John Gill or Albert Barnes to explain it. The words explain themselves. You need to go back and tell Adam Clark and John Gill and Albert Barnes that Jesus said:
I know the words explain themselves. lol. I am just showing you that NO ONE AGREES WITH YOUR READING TREND to say the ANGEL is Jesus in Rev 1. I gave evidence to show you that others agree with me. I did not get my belief about it from those writers, but showed you that they claimed that what I also see is what they saw.

Quote:
18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

and then consider these words for yourself? Nobody here asked "what do you think it says" - the question was what does it say

The LAMB took a scroll from the right hand of God on the throne. The LAMB was not on the throne. Was this Jesus or not? Answer?
When are you going to talk about the ALpha and Omega calling Himself ALMIGHTY? That was my argument. You have yet to disprove it. How many days now have you failed to respond to my main argument.

Everything else can be explained AFTER we deal with this point, I promise. BUT THIS POINT is my main argument. Stop playing here and deal with it.

Walks_in_islam 05-06-2014 06:30 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1312314)
...
No it is not the same messenger. lol. Prove to me it is the same messenger.
I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are asking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

Praxeas 05-06-2014 06:41 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312324)
I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are asking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"
What's your point here?

mfblume 05-06-2014 07:38 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312324)
I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are ascking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"
You're misreading the context.

Anyway, you can't answer my issue can you? I will try this once more and if you refuse to deal with it then it can only mean one thing. You can't.

Walks_in_islam 05-07-2014 03:36 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1312325)
What's your point here?
What's yours? Do you have one?

Walks_in_islam 05-07-2014 03:42 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1312337)
You're misreading the context.

Anyway, you can't answer my issue can you? I will try this once more and if you refuse to deal with it then it can only mean one thing. You can't.
I have answered it. "Alpha and Omega" cannot possibly mean what you say it means if Jesus and God are in two separate places at the same location at the same time doing two separate things, nor can it possibly mean what you say it means if you say Jesus said it and during those times he is not sitting on God's throne, but was doing other things. I am mildly amused that if these messengers say one thing they are Jesus but if they say another in the same passage of the same story then OH well it has to be someone else.

Adding to this amusement is how Jesus is separated from "angels" in one book and and lumped with the other "messengers" in another (this one being the literal translation) which makes me unstunned that using one version at least helps explain your point while you really want to stay out of the literal version, for that I do not blame you at all. I will make a quiet comment that shouldn't they all say the same thing though?

What you cannot do is explain this nor can you find a passage where it is Jesus, Jesus only, sitting on the throne of the Almighty, a passage that will overcome all of the other passages sprinkled through the book where Jesus deferred to God as having given him power or sent him. All you can do is say "but.....but...... Jesus said this" without addressing the written description(s) of the visions of heaven, where God is, and where Jesus is at the same point in time, in a different place doing different things.

Or can you? Perhaps another scholar? Surely there is a real heavyweight out there that absent the words in the actual book could dish up an explanation. Innocent curiosity only. If so you could sell that too on your gospel website. Imagine the profit!

OH - Did you say earlier that Jesus was ruling the earth right now? Was that from yet another scholar? I declare that He will, but not just yet.

Walks_in_islam 05-07-2014 01:14 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on HIS glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father Separate entities - Matthew. If they are the same shouldn't it say "blessed by ME"?

"The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, JUST AS they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him… And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man." Separate entities - John If they are the same, how does right of judgement be "given" from one to another?

"But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’" - separate entities - Acts Well this doesn't need any further editorial does it

"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Separate entities - Philippians If they are the same, why not to His glory, instead of to the glory of God the Father?

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him." Separate entities - Peter Right hand of God? Why not occupying the throne of God?

"And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David" Separate entities - Luke Same throne he gave to Solomon?

NOTE: A throne does NOT MAKE YOU GOD - Chronicles

"Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of David his father. And he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him."

"Blessed be the LORD your God, who has delighted in you and set you on his throne as king for the LORD your God"

"The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on MY throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." - separate entities - Revelations (seems that thrones are thrown around a lot in Revelations - there is one for everyone who serves God, 24 for elders, one for Jesus, one for God himself)

"The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star." - separate entities - Revelations If they are the same why receive authority from His father to grant to others, why not just grant authority in His own right?

"and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever - separate entities - Revelations Priests to HIS God and Father? Why not say "Priests to Him"? Does God have a God?

Call out the scholars. There are lots, and lots, and lots more of these examples. I'm just tired of typing them in.

mfblume 05-07-2014 06:16 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312401)
I have answered it.
No you have not.

You have not answered me why Alpha and Omega is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive again.

I guess you can't.

So see ya later.

Sabby 05-07-2014 10:32 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Isaiah 9:6 was fulfilled in Beth-lehem. The Word (which was and is God) was (incarnate) made flesh. This forum is not a bully pulpit for non-believers.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This verse alone explains Christ's dual nature. That is unless you have a superior version, one that is literal (sc). If you don't believe in the incarnation and spend time on this forum arguing over the deity of Christ, this, coming from a decidedly biased Islamist opinion, you are wasting your time.

Mike Blume asked a simple question. How many Almightys are there? Instead of cutting and pasting your talking points just answer the question
How many are there? Why is Jesus called the Almghty? Why is he prophesied in Isaiah as a son and as a father? ] He had a dual nature.
The Word of God Himself dwelt within the body of a human in Beth-lehem. It resulted in God being manifested -revealed - in the flesh. It is very clear.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

In answer to the Thread question: Because the Bible declares it to be so.

Walks_in_islam 05-08-2014 05:06 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabby (Post 1312542)
Isaiah 9:6 was fulfilled in Beth-lehem. The Word (which was and is God) was (incarnate) made flesh. This forum is not a bully pulpit for non-believers.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This verse alone explains Christ's dual nature. That is unless you have a superior version, one that is literal (sc). If you don't believe in the incarnation and spend time on this forum arguing over the deity of Christ, this, coming from a decidedly biased Islamist opinion, you are wasting your time.

Mike Blume asked a simple question. How many Almightys are there? Instead of cutting and pasting your talking points just answer the question
How many are there? Why is Jesus called the Almghty? Why is he prophesied in Isaiah as a son and as a father? ] He had a dual nature.
The Word of God Himself dwelt within the body of a human in Beth-lehem. It resulted in God being manifested -revealed - in the flesh. It is very clear.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

In answer to the Thread question: Because the Bible declares it to be so.
This is rich.

10. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Fulfilled? Peace for which there shall be no end? Which time period since the time of Isaiah has this happened?

Back to Rev 1.

Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne, (that is God)

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, (that is Jesus)

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father (that is deference to God, as Jesus prayed to and deferred to God in His own ministry)

The two are separate.

Isaiah 9 'fulfilled'? You must be numb. Peace indeed.

What really happened: The followers of the christian faith engaged in wanton, unlimited persecution and bloodshed for centuries that only ended with the establishment of governments based on the fundamental principal that those followers of christian religion were prohibited from application of the practice of their beliefs in government. The first amendment was not written to protect the christian faith, it was written to protect society from those who practice it and the pilgrims who arrived at our shores were not escaping poverty, they were escaping religious persecution by those who practice Christianity.

Walks_in_islam 05-08-2014 10:59 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1312524)
No you have not.

You have not answered me why Alpha and Omega is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive again.

I guess you can't.

So see ya later.
Bye

Walks_in_islam 05-08-2014 02:03 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1312524)
No you have not.

So see ya later.
Sure I have. My answer was and is and will always be that this does not mean what you say it means because it is in conflict with literally dozens of passages that clearly say something different.

The issue here is that you can't sidestep that answer, so you're leaving.

This forum is not a bully pulpit for non-believers.

If any of you feel bullied by specific, unchanged passages from your own book then the problem here is not me

Walks_in_islam 05-08-2014 07:21 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1312524)
No you have not.

You have not answered me why Alpha and Omega is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive again.

I guess you can't.

So see ya later.
Hebrews: This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Genesis: Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

mmmmmmk......to be a priest you have to defer to SOMEBODY right? Otherwise Melchizedek would be priest to.....Jesus BUT Jesus would be a priest to? El Elyon - that's the God of Melchizedek

Sean 05-11-2014 08:14 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312688)
Hebrews: This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Genesis: Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

mmmmmmk......to be a priest you have to defer to SOMEBODY right? Otherwise Melchizedek would be priest to.....Jesus BUT Jesus would be a priest to? El Elyon - that's the God of Melchizedek


Was Melchizedek a "pagan priest" ...what is your take on this?.

Walks_in_islam 05-11-2014 04:53 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1313077)
Was Melchizedek a "pagan priest" ...what is your take on this?.
Pagan? No. He was a priest to God.

I wish to know how Jesus is a priest and is also God but I believe the troops have scattered.

Pressing-On 05-11-2014 09:32 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312552)
Isaiah 9 'fulfilled'? You must be numb. Peace indeed.
The "peace" being referred to is His Spirit/Comforter which was promised under the New Covenant. The Spirit is likened to a "dove", which is a symbol of "peace".

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

They didn't quite understand Him while He was alive, but understood more after His death.

When Jesus speaks, you must search out why He says what He says. For instance, in John 14:1, Jesus says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me."

He isn't making a division here because, in verse 9 He is responding to Phillip, "...he that has seen/clearly discerned me, has seen/clearly discerned the father...

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

If they didn't quite understand Isaiah 9:6, they would later on the Day of Pentecost.

Jesus says in John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter..."

Again, no division here as we read John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you..."

He is our peace, our Comforter/Advocate/Counselor, our Father, our God, our Saviour.

If He "hung the earth upon nothing" Job 26:7, why would it be hard to understand that He can be all in all?

Sean 05-11-2014 10:53 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1313094)
Pagan? No. He was a priest to God.

I wish to know how Jesus is a priest and is also God but I believe the troops have scattered.
Thanks, there are some ideas that he was a pagan priest. Im leaning in that direction.
Let me know if you care to discuss it. If not, its fine.

Walks_in_islam 05-12-2014 10:44 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1313107)
Thanks, there are some ideas that he was a pagan priest. Im leaning in that direction.
Let me know if you care to discuss it. If not, its fine.
Jesus was not a pagan priest

Aquila 05-12-2014 01:35 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Pressing-On 05-12-2014 02:00 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1313146)
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.
:thumbsup :thumbsup

Sean 05-12-2014 03:00 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1313134)
Jesus was not a pagan priest



Im talking about melkesidek, not Jesus

Sean 05-12-2014 03:04 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1313134)
Jesus was not a pagan priest



Im talking about melkesidek, not Jesus


Sorry, that was not what I meant up there, it does look like I said Jesus was a Pagan priest....I meant Melkesidek

mfblume 05-12-2014 09:43 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1312688)
Hebrews: This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Genesis: Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

mmmmmmk......to be a priest you have to defer to SOMEBODY right? Otherwise Melchizedek would be priest to.....Jesus BUT Jesus would be a priest to? El Elyon - that's the God of Melchizedek
You totally miss the concept of God being able to manifest in flesh as a man with self-limited abilities. No wonder you do not believe oneness. You do not understand it.

jfrog 05-13-2014 01:40 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1313134)
...
My God! you were right.
Revelation 22

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his (Gods) commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

***It's also very strange reading this passage in a red letter king james version because there are red letter from verse 7 to 16 but verses 8-11 are removed even though it's clear the speaker has not changed...

CJManzell 05-13-2014 03:41 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1313201)
You totally miss the concept of God being able to manifest in flesh as a man with self-limited abilities.
Where did this concept come from?

mfblume 05-14-2014 05:07 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJManzell (Post 1313235)
Where did this concept come from?
The bible. It's the only conclusion we can get from the bible when we read He is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive.

mfblume 05-14-2014 05:12 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1313229)
My God! you were right.
Revelation 22

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his (Gods) commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

***It's also very strange reading this passage in a red letter king james version because there are red letter from verse 7 to 16 but verses 8-11 are removed even though it's clear the speaker has not changed...
No, that is incorrect. Jesus is disttinguished FROM THE ANGEL as follows:
Rev 22:16 KJV I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
THE ANGEL QUOTED JESUS.

CJManzell 05-14-2014 05:12 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1313486)
The bible. It's the only conclusion we can get from the bible when we read He is the Almighty as well as the one who died and is alive.
Post all the scriptures that you say, say...Jesus the man is God.

Then we will discuss them one by one.

mfblume 05-14-2014 05:13 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJManzell (Post 1313489)
Post all the scriptures that you say, say...Jesus the man is God.

Then we will discuss them one by one.
Joh 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

CJManzell 05-14-2014 06:20 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1313490)
Joh 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
You are saying, that these verses from the bible are saying
that Jesus is the Word? True or false?

mfblume 05-14-2014 10:13 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJManzell (Post 1313506)
You are saying, that these verses from the bible are saying
that Jesus is the Word? True or false?
Of course. You are saying the WORD that was made flesh was not Jesus?

Walks_in_islam 05-17-2014 05:15 AM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1313146)
The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.
I am busy. We are returning to Saudi shortly however I will answer your post.

The famous passage: John 10:30.

What does ONE (Greek word HEN) mean?

John 11

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one. If this word word (HEN - ONE) means what you say it means then that means that somehow the people of God are all the same individual. It does not.

John 17: (Interestingly enough, Jesus who you say is proven to be God in the book of John, is praying to God in John 17 but not a one of you have ever explained this or brought this up)

11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we

Same word - HEN - ONE - does NOT mean that each disciple is the same as the other disciple. It is used to show sameness in purpose/beliefs/feelings/goals (which I believe we all agree that Jesus was same in purpose with God)

Again in John 17 - here Jesus himself explains what (HEN - ONE) means which is much closer to what I believe it means than what you believe it means:

21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. ONE in US? The disciples were gods also? By your logic they are (speaking of peril yah? but by mine they are not)

22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

Summary:

"I and my father are one" does not mean that they are the same entity. It means that they are two different distinct entities with completely common goals and purposes - this does not make Jesus God any more than becoming ONE makes the disciples Peter the same as the Disciple John.

Another example: 1 Cor 6:16

16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.'

17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;

Being joined as ONE to your wife which is the reference here does not make you a wife any more than being joined as ONE to God makes you a god.

With that said I believe I saw you post He will judge all men

Not what your book says. Book says many will judge. I will let you find the passages because I think you (not just you, all of you) need to study it more.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Walks_in_islam 05-17-2014 04:28 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1313201)
You totally miss the concept of God being able to manifest in flesh as a man with self-limited abilities. No wonder you do not believe oneness. You do not understand it.
Probably because your book really does not say it. In fact, it specifically states the opposite.

I thought you left. Next time you come back, quote some verses. Surely there are some that support your "opinion"

Walks_in_islam 05-17-2014 04:32 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1313102)
The "peace" being referred to is His Spirit/Comforter which was promised under the New Covenant. The Spirit is likened to a "dove", which is a symbol of "peace".

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

They didn't quite understand Him while He was alive, but understood more after His death.

When Jesus speaks, you must search out why He says what He says. For instance, in John 14:1, Jesus says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me."

He isn't making a division here because, in verse 9 He is responding to Phillip, "...he that has seen/clearly discerned me, has seen/clearly discerned the father...

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

If they didn't quite understand Isaiah 9:6, they would later on the Day of Pentecost.

Jesus says in John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter..."

Again, no division here as we read John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you..."

He is our peace, our Comforter/Advocate/Counselor, our Father, our God, our Saviour.

If He "hung the earth upon nothing" Job 26:7, why would it be hard to understand that He can be all in all?
We were discussing Isaiah. It was claimed to be "fulfilled"

Here is what it says: "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever"

I asked - where is the kingdom, peace, and government?

I answered - it is in the future. Summary: These passages are not fulfilled and no possible combination of completely unrelated passages will ever convince even the most unlearned that they are

Walks_in_islam 05-17-2014 04:35 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1313488)
No, that is incorrect. Jesus is disttinguished FROM THE ANGEL as follows:
Rev 22:16 KJV I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
THE ANGEL QUOTED JESUS.
Seems your needle just jumps all over your record doesn't it. Thought you left. Welcome back

mfblume 05-17-2014 04:45 PM
Re: Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 1313867)
Probably because your book really does not say it. In fact, it specifically states the opposite.

I thought you left. Next time you come back, quote some verses. Surely there are some that support your "opinion"
You avoided my point, so why deal with more?


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