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-   -   Christianity is a Jewish religion (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=16120)

Praxeas 06-24-2008 11:50 PM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neubill (Post 508958)

THEY were Jewish...those people, and they practiced a Jewish religion. THEY kept kosher, kept Shabbat and the feasts. James speaks in Acts 21 about the Jews who Believe and are zealous for Torah, and there apparently were a lot of them.

The Gentile Church? Praxeas, the Body of Messiah is the Church. One Church. The Church was Jewish.



Gentiles being brought into the Jewish flock to become one flock. Gentiles are brought into the Jewish church to become one church. How else does one explain being grafted in to the Olive Tree of Israel? Paul makes a point to remind us that the grafted in branch doesn't support the root, but the root supports the branch. Our faith is Jewish, our roots are Jewish, and our faith came out of the cradle of Judaism. Christianity is a Jewish religion.




I read Acts 15. It chronicles the meeting of the Jerusalem Council, a council of Church leaders comprised of Jews leading the Church, one which started out as a sect of Judaism known as 'The Way.'

The Church WAS Jewish in foundation, but not exclusive to Jews. The Gospel spread to the half-Jews and then to the non-Jews, culminating with Acts 15 which convened for the purpose of determining if Gentiles needed to become Jews according to Rabbinic (not Torah) tradition. The answer was not made by a consensus of Jews and Gentiles, but Jews only, who were the leaders of a sect of Judaism.

Though the Jerusalem Council determined conversion as unnecessary, going to the synagogue and learning Torah on Shabbat was still part of the early Church, as they were encouraged to do so in verse 21.

After the Church grew with the addition of Gentiles, Judaism began to be choked out of the Body of Messiah.



I'll reiterate:



Praxeus, you say Christianity is not Judaism.
Christianity WAS Messianic Judaism. It was, and it will be again as the Torah will be written on every heart. Little by little, like it or not, the Body of Messiah is returning again to her foundation: the Scriptures Jesus and His Disciples read, which is the Torah. Christianity started out as, and was always meant to be, a Jewish religion.

I'm looking forward to observing the Festival of Tabernacles with you and watching you love every minute of it as you rejoice before The LORD your G-d as prescribed by G-d's Holy Torah.

Thanks for your response![/font]
it was not judaism

judaism is a religion centered around temple worship, a priesthood and animal sacrifices,

the jewish believers (The bible speaks of jewish and gentile believers) practiced judaism;. gentile believers did not, they were not jews.

jews practiced it because they were already jews and not because they were now christians.

you don;t have to convert to judaism in order to be christian

Michael The Disciple 06-25-2008 12:19 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Todays teachers of Moses law always fall back to this. They say when Paul speaks about not being under the law he was talking about what they call "the oral law". Therefore its not possible to come to the same conclusion because we do not have the same reference point.

Here was the source of the problem as it still is today.

5: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:5

So they wanted Gentile believers to

a. Be circumcised
b. Keep the LAW OF MOSES

That is the law given by YAH to Moses to give to the children of Israel when they came out of Egypt.

The council decreed:

22: Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26: Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27: We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Acts 15:22-29

It would have been a great time to tell them yes keep the law of Moses. But no. Rather Peter said:

10: Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10

Neubill 06-25-2008 03:27 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 509018)
it was not judaism

judaism is a religion centered around temple worship, a priesthood and animal sacrifices,
Point of contention: Judaism is centered around the Torah, and keeping it.

One of the first things G-d did was given the Decalogue at Sinai, and the majority of the other commandments come back to these ten. If Judaism is centered around temple worship, a priesthood, and animal sacrifices, then the religion would have died, yet it's still around in the absence of a temple, priesthood, and animal sacrifices for more than 1900 years.

The heart of Judaism is Torah, not the temple service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 509018)
the jewish believers (The bible speaks of jewish and gentile believers) practiced judaism;. gentile believers did not, they were not jews.
Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and John Chrysostom would disagree with you. Want sources?
  • Pseudo-Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians
  • Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 47
  • John Chrysostom, Against the Jews, Homily 1.5
Why would they write letters to Gentile communities in Asia Minor, telling 'weak brothers' to stop keeping Torah, even though they had the Blood of Jesus? Because they, as Christians, were following their faith like their Messiah did. They recognized Christianity to be a Jewish religion. And they didn't stop observing it this way because they realized they were Gentiles; they stopped because the Church made it illegal:

Council of Nicea: Have nothing to do this the Jews.
Council of Antioch: Passover observance is prohibited.
Council of Laodicea: Sabbath observance is prohibited.

All of these were in the 4th Century(!), so why would governing bodies pass edicts like these if people weren't observing Torah? Because they were keeping Torah just like their Messiah did, every jot and tittle of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 509018)
jews practiced it because they were already jews and not because they were now christians.

you don;t have to convert to judaism in order to be christian
Praxeas, you're the only one talking about conversion. Christians don't convert to Judaism to practice Christianity, and I don't recall ever writing that to be the case.

I do recall writing that Christianity was a form of Judaism, an existing sect within greater Judaism until Gentiles overwhelmed the Body of Messiah and men took the Jewish heart out of the Church. Christianity started out as a Jewish religion, one which involved keeping Torah.

I'm enjoying our discussion, friend. :)

Neubill 06-25-2008 04:00 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 509030)
Todays teachers of Moses law always fall back to this. They say when Paul speaks about not being under the law he was talking about what they call "the oral law". Therefore its not possible to come to the same conclusion because we do not have the same reference point.

Here was the source of the problem as it still is today.

5: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:5
Not to refute your excellent post, Michael, but the source of the problem is clearer to me in verse 1, and I'm not sure why you didn't include it in your post.

Quote:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." Acts 15:1
The problem is that Pharisees would not only refer to Torah as the "Law of Moses" (the Manner of Moses) but also to the Traditions of the Fathers as the "Law of Moses." Knowing this, a look at verse 1 indicates to me the issue at hand: formal entry for Gentiles into the Jewish body of Messiah through conversion.

Is your view of the issue as being the insistence of the Pharisee Believers (who Paul calls false brethren in Galatians) for Gentiles to officially convert through the established "Oral Law" method, as well as take on the yoke of obeying every jot and tittle of the Torah? It is my view that the only issue at hand is formal entry through Pharisaical conversion, based on verse 1.

No conversion ceremony exists in the five books of Torah for a Gentile to convert and become an Israelite. A conversion ceremony does exist in the Oral Law, dating all the way back to Pharisaical times. The ceremony is:

Korban (Sacrifice) {Today, this is replaced with Tzedakah (charity)}
B'rit Milah (Circumcision)
Mikvah (Immersion [baptism])

I greatly appreciate your contribution to this thread as well as you sharpening my iron. I hope I am reciprocating. :)

Michael The Disciple 06-25-2008 09:32 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Quote:
The problem is that Pharisees would not only refer to Torah as the "Law of Moses" (the Manner of Moses) but also to the Traditions of the Fathers as the "Law of Moses." Knowing this, a look at verse 1 indicates to me the issue at hand: formal entry for Gentiles into the Jewish body of Messiah through conversion.

Is your view of the issue as being the insistence of the Pharisee Believers (who Paul calls false brethren in Galatians) for Gentiles to officially convert through the established "Oral Law" method, as well as take on the yoke of obeying every jot and tittle of the Torah? It is my view that the only issue at hand is formal entry through Pharisaical conversion, based on verse 1.
Hi Neubill,

But the truth is that the APOSTLE PETER would have recognized the difference between the law of Moses and the traditions of men just like Yeshua did. . The Pharisees were demanding circumcision to be saved. Then they ALSO were wanting to make the Gentile believers keep the law of Moses.

When Peter said what he did about a yoke of bondage he was not insinuating that ALL OF THE APOSTLES ANS ELDERS and everyone else at the council as well as all their Fathers had been doing nothing except keeping (or trying to keep) the traditions of men.

Neubill 06-26-2008 04:33 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
"Hey!" to you, Michael!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 509166)
Hi Neubill,

But the truth is that the APOSTLE PETER would have recognized the difference between the law of Moses and the traditions of men just like Yeshua did. . The Pharisees were demanding circumcision to be saved. Then they ALSO were wanting to make the Gentile believers keep the law of Moses.

When Peter said what he did about a yoke of bondage he was not insinuating that ALL OF THE APOSTLES ANS ELDERS and everyone else at the council as well as all their Fathers had been doing nothing except keeping (or trying to keep) the traditions of men.
We're having a great discussion here, and I don't want to seem contrary or as one who is refuting everything you're bringing into this discussion.

The thing is, in the Jewish community then (and today...), one was not following Torah if it was not followed the way the Torah teachers followed it. Back then, the Torah teachers were the Pharisees, and if you didn't do it their way, according to the Traditions of The Fathers, you weren't obeying Torah. So, Peter actually was insinuating that all of the apostles and elders and everyone else at the council as well as all their Fathers had been doing nothing except keeping (or trying to keep) Torah according to the traditions of men. Back then, keeping the Law of Moses meant the Torah and The Traditions.

Shalom shalom, Mikel Ha-Talmid! I look forward to searching out the Scriptures with you sometime!

Neubill 06-26-2008 04:59 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryseeker (Post 508646)
Most who claim to be "apostolic" are referring to a holiness or oneness doctrine, which is an inaccurate usage of the word.

In reality the word "apostolic" mainly refers to the apostolic ministry of the original twelve apostles. This reference is not so much a reference of their doctrine, but the anointing that they operated in...that of an Apostle. One may believe in the apostolic ministry or the apostolic age, but that does not make them apostolic it just makes them a believer.

Since probably only about 5% of the Body of Christ would qualify as legitimately being called into the gifting or anointing of an Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, or teacher then they are not truly "apostolic" even if they adhere to the doctrine of the Apostles.

If, being "apostolic" only refers to the doctrine of the Apostles then every mainstream denomination would be apostolic as they all claim to believe the teachings of the New Testament.
I do not disagree with your assessment of the term 'Apostolic' in the sense that it is often misused. You are correct in that one who is Apostolic is one who is an Apostle. However, my reference to being Apostolic can best be defined by Merriam-Webster below:
Quote:
Main Entry:
ap·os·tol·ic

1 a: of or relating to an apostle b: of, relating to, or conforming to the teachings of the New Testament apostles
Looking at it now, my Apostolic reference needed further explanation. Essentially, the Apostles are our forefathers in the faith, just as much as Abraham, Moses, and David are. The main thing for me is, our Apostolic forefathers were the first to put Yeshua's teachings in action, and if we do it the way they did, then I believe it makes us like them and more than just believers. Not Apostles, but Apostolic. This is just my view.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. :)

Sister Alvear 07-02-2008 08:01 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
I believe we are spiritual jews not converted gentiles once we recieve Christ...or course many differ and I do not think it to be something that I would fuss about just my personal belief...I don´t even know how my husband believes on that subject...

andersbra 03-11-2010 02:21 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
Reg. the difference between Judaism and Christianity:

(le-havdil), A analysis (found here: www.netzarim.co.il (that is the only legitimate Netzarim)) of all extant source documents and archaeology using a rational and logical methodology proves that the historical Ribi Yehosuha ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth and his talmidim (apprentice-students), called the Netzarim, taught and lived Torah all of their lives; and that Netzarim and Christianity were always antithetical.

The mitzwot (directives or military-style orders) in Torah (claimed in Tan’’kh (the Jewish Bible) to be the instructions of the Creator), the core of the Judaism, are an indivisible whole. Rejecting any one constitutes rejecting of the whole… and the Church rejected many mitzwot, for example rejecting to observe the Shabat on the seventh day in the Jewish week. Examples are endless. Devarim (“Deuteronomy”) 13.1-6 explicitly precludes the Christian “NT”. Devarim 13:1-6 forbids the addition of mitzwot and subtraction of mitzwot from Torah.

Ribi Yehoshuas talmidim Netzarim still observes Torah non-selectively to their utmost today and the research in the previous mentioned Netzarim-website implies that becoming one of Ribi Yehoshuas Netzarim-followers is the only way to follow him.

Trouvere 03-11-2010 07:42 AM
Re: Christianity is a Jewish religion
 
I disagree with the statement that Christianity is a Jewish Religon.

Our roots are not Hebrew.

Our roots are in One Hebrew.

Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.


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