Before the beginning...what?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Just my thoughts as I read the scriptures

EL-OHIM (GOD ALMIGHTY)
Later called the “I AM”: the Eternal One
(His NAME had not yet been revealed)
He is Love: He needed to express Love
He would later create man, to express His Love in him
___

Universe established…(?)
.
The ‘heavens’ were first established
The [earth] was without form…void…in darkness
(I would assume the heavens/universe were also...in darkness)
___

Angels were created
.
They were given a free will to “remain” faithful
Angels were delegated some authority
Lucifer was an arch-angel
___

Iniquity was found in Lucifer
.
Iniquity Defined: unfaithful in the presence of Truth
He CHOSE to be unfaithful
Iniquity (or sin) cannot stand in the place of Holiness
Iniquity was cast out from the presence of Holiness

Can anyone fill in some blanks BEFORE creation as known?


Brother Villa

[Esaias]

The word beginning means the start. Thus, there is no "before the beginning."

Otherwise, the beginning is when God made the heavens and earth and all things therein. In which case we can only speculate - we have no solid data.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

The word beginning means the start. Thus, there is no "before the beginning."
Otherwise, the beginning is when God made the heavens and earth and all things therein.
In which case we can only speculate - we have no solid data.

Well, my eighth grade education is showing!

I should have been more precise: In the beginning [before the creation
of the heavens and the earth...]. I did not think I needed to state that, since
eternity has no beginning, and neither does God. MEA CULPA.

Any other thoughts, Beloved?

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Well, my eighth grade education is showing!

I should have been more precise: In the beginning [before the creation
of the heavens and the earth...]. I did not think I needed to state that, since
eternity has no beginning, and neither does God. MEA CULPA.

Any other thoughts, Beloved?

Brother Villa

Well, I was just pointing out a lot of people think there was some "before" the "in the beginning" which technically makes no sense. It's like saying a round square or something.

I don't know of any verse that says what happened between the beginning moment and God creating the heavens and the earth. Maybe God took a deep breath and said "Well, heeeeeeeere we go!"

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, I was just pointing out a lot of people think there was some "before" the "in the beginning"
which technically makes no sense. It's like saying a round square or something.

I don't know of any verse that says what happened between the beginning moment and God creating
the heavens and the earth. Maybe God took a deep breath and said "Well, heeeeeeeere we go!"

LOL. So God just goes, "He-eeeeer's Jesus!" I would imagine that that is
something those believing in something like Greek mythology would entertain.

Well, Beloved, my reading of the scriptures have me believing that something
DID happen BEFORE the creation of the natural realm. Believing that nothing
unholy can stand in the presence of Holiness; believing that this universe was
created because God knew that iniquity would be found in Lucifer; believing
that Lucifer and his followers were cast out from the presence of Holiness.

Now, if the casting out of Lucifer is true, then God would have had to create a
place for all those angels! Hence: the "...earth was without form...void...and
darkness...". Then we can see everything else falling into place in God's plan
for man's redemption.

I know, some are already saying that there was no man and no sin...yet. But
God knew man would sin, that is why he said, regarding the forbidden fruit,
"...onthe day that you eat thereof...". There was no and, if's, or but's about it.
Adam ate of the forbidden tree's fruit, and he began to die.

Beloved, I'm just trying to fill in some gaps. I KNOW the church has all the info
we need to rejoice in the judgment of sin and redemption of man.

Brother Villa

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, I was just pointing out a lot of people think there was some "before" the "in the beginning" which technically makes no sense. It's like saying a round square or something.

I don't know of any verse that says what happened between the beginning moment and God creating the heavens and the earth. Maybe God took a deep breath and said "Well, heeeeeeeere we go!"

hahha!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!




Well, Beloved, my reading of the scriptures have me believing that something
DID happen BEFORE the creation of the natural realm. Believing that nothing
unholy can stand in the presence of Holiness; believing that this universe was
created because God knew that iniquity would be found in Lucifer; believing
that Lucifer and his followers were cast out from the presence of Holiness.

Lucifer is a Latin title for the king of Babylon. There was and is no supernatural being named "Lucifer" who was the choir director in heaven and who decided to overthrow God and was kicked out of heaven as a result, taking 1/3rd of the angelic host with him. THAT'S pagan mythology, brother.

Now, if the casting out of Lucifer is true,

Lucifer was "cast DOWN" when God brought down the Babylonian Empire. See:

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(Isaiah 14:4)

Isaiah chapter 14, which is the only place in the KJV where the word "lucifer" appears, contains a PROVERB (a parable) against the KING OF BABYLON.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(Isaiah 14:12-16)

Lucifer was a man, the king of Babylon. He exalted himself but would be cast into hell (sheol, hades, the grave). If this is "the chief of the fallen angels" then there's a problem... he hadn't been cast down yet when Isaiah 14 was written!

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
(Isaiah 14:20-25)

Lucifer is the king of Babylon, who would be punished, and his sons and remnant would be punished as well. This is speaking of the destruction of Babylon, not some heavenly angelic being.

then God would have had to create a
place for all those angels! Hence: the "...earth was without form...void...and
darkness...". Then we can see everything else falling into place in God's plan
for man's redemption.

Well, when we understand that "lucifer" is an historical epithet of the king of Babylon, everything else does indeed fall into place: the idea of a heavenly archangel rebelling against God and taking a bunch of angels with him is seen to be pagan bunk. In fact, both Peter and Jude expressly condemned this doctrine! I'll have to find the thread on 2 Peter and Jude that goes in depth into that subject. The "fallen angels" myth is a false doctrine of the Enochite Jews expressly condemned by the new testament.

I know, some are already saying that there was no man and no sin...yet. But
God knew man would sin, that is why he said, regarding the forbidden fruit,
"...onthe day that you eat thereof...". There was no and, if's, or but's about it.
Adam ate of the forbidden tree's fruit, and he began to die.

Beloved, I'm just trying to fill in some gaps. I KNOW the church has all the info
we need to rejoice in the judgment of sin and redemption of man.

Brother Villa

Adam's fall occurred after the "beginning" and after the creation of heaven and earth.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

hahha!

I had to laugh right after I typed that.

lol

[Amanah]

Bro Esaias, how did the demonic forces originate. All that God created is good, and yet we have snake in the garden tempting Eve.

Could the parable in Isaiah be a shadow of the fall of the angels before the garden?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

1) Lucifer is a Latin title for the king of Babylon. There was and is no supernatural being named "Lucifer"
who was the choir director in heaven and who decided to overthrow God and was kicked out of heaven
as a result, taking 1/3rd of the angelic host with him. THAT'S pagan mythology, brother.
2)Adam's fall occurred after the "beginning" and after the creation of heaven and earth.

So you subscribe to a literal translation of the scriptures.
1) I believe that the spiritual realm is manifest in the natural realm; and the
natural realm attests to the reality of the spiritual realm. I don't see it as a
pagan thing: even pagans have some truth! Or why is the story of the flood
talked about in pagan circles? I mean, they also know history.

2) Our Lord spoke to his disciples in parables: oftentimes touching upon natural
truths. “He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever
hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever
hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to
them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand.”

It is given to the church to understand, perceive, and discern, that we may
rejoice in the truth to obey it. That we may SEE God's plan as it unfolded to
reveal the gospel that saves: that it might include all who believe and obey!

Brother Villa