Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Fa

[RonMurray]

"Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Faith"

In Mark 1;15, Mark 16;16, and John 7;38, Jesus tells us that repentamce, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are all directly connected with believing. So it's about believing and obeying the gospel both. It's obedience by faith. Or as James puts it, it's works by faith. But repentance and baptism aren't our works, or our own righteousness, they are the works of God, who works in us and leads us to repentance and baptism according to His word and will. Repentance and baptism both work together for forgiveness and washing away of sins. Forgiveness comes with repentance (2 Chronicles 7;14), and our sins are washed away in baptism (Acts 22;16).

So it's a misconception that repentance and baptism are against grace or faith. Repentance and baptism are given to us by the grace of God for forgiveness and washing away of our sins, and they are done by faith in Jesus Christ. So repentance and baptism, along with the gift of the Holy Spirit, is God working salvation in us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ unto eternal life...

As it is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8. 

[good samaritan]

Amen!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by RonMurray

"Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Faith"

In Mark 1;15, Mark 16;16, and John 7;38, Jesus tells us that repentamce, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are all directly connected with believing. So it's about believing and obeying the gospel both. It's obedience by faith. Or as James puts it, it's works by faith. But repentance and baptism aren't our works, or our own righteousness, they are the works of God, who works in us and leads us to repentance and baptism according to His word and will. Repentance and baptism both work together for forgiveness and washing away of sins. Forgiveness comes with repentance (2 Chronicles 7;14), and our sins are washed away in baptism (Acts 22;16).

So it's a misconception that repentance and baptism are against grace or faith. Repentance and baptism are given to us by the grace of God for forgiveness and washing away of our sins, and they are done by faith in Jesus Christ. So repentance and baptism, along with the gift of the Holy Spirit, is God working salvation in us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ unto eternal life...

As it is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8.

Amen. How could baptism be against grace when it's part of the gospel of grace and taught by Jesus himself? Lol. Grace came by Jesus and Jesus commanded baptism.

[shazeep]

with fire, yes...

[mfblume]

The Bible spoke of John noting the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost. The fire was the judgment that is akin to gathering up the chaff for burning, while wheat is put into barns. Then there is water baptism into Christ's death. We don't want the baptism of fire. Lol

[shazeep]

hmm, i would say 'funny' but at this point that pov is completely understandable. At any rate, that is surely not what is meant in Scripture, and it seems most interpretations either conflate baptism with fire to the Holy Spirit, making the passage redundant, or more often,

"The phrase also occurs in Luke 3:16 and it might be taken as a reference to the fiery trial of faith which endures suffering and purifies the faithful who look upon God's glory and are transformed, not consumed (Mark 10:38, James 1:2-4, 1 Peter 1:7, 1 Peter 4:12)" and these are able to read the verses that bracket Matt 3:11 also, which do not use "fire" in relation to "baptism." We have plenty of other refs for "refining fire," as well."Baptism by fire" is a cliche, even.

but at any rate i have to agree that most people don't seem to want it lol. Gotta wonder if it is the same crowd that see their doom in fulfills the law and the prophets, huh. Anyway, we can start a new thread if we need to, let us know RM.

[mfblume]

John the Baptist actually talked about fire of judgment in the very context he mentioned baptism of fire.

Several interpertations:

Barnes

With fire This expression has been variously understood. Some have supposed that John refers to the afflictions and persecutions with which men would be tried under the Gospel;


others, that the word “fire” means judgment or wrath. According to this latter interpretation, the meaning is that he would baptize a portion of mankind - those who were willing to be his followers - with the Holy Spirit, but the rest of mankind - the wicked - with fire; that is, with judgment and wrath. Fire is a symbol of vengeance. See Isa 5:24; Isa 61:2;Isa 66:24 (refs3). If this is the meaning, as seems to be probable, then John says that the ministry of the Messiah would be far more powerful than his was. It would be more searching and testing; and they who were not suited to abide the test would be cast into eternal fire.

Others have supposed, however, that by fire, here, John intends to express the idea that the preaching of the Messiah would be refining, powerful, purifying, as fire is sometimes an emblem of purity, Mal 3:2. It is difficult to ascertain the precise meaning further than that his ministry would be very trying, purifying, searching. Multitudes would be converted; and those who were not true penitents would not be able to abide the trial, and would be driven away.


Gill
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire; referring, either to the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, to be bestowed on the disciples on the day of Pentecost, of which the cloven tongues, like as of fire, which appeared unto them, and sat upon them, were the symbols; which was an instance of the great power and grace of Christ, and of his exaltation at the Father's right hand.

Or rather, this phrase is expressive of the awful judgments which should be inflicted by him on the Jewish nation; when he by his Spirit should "reprove" them for the sin of rejecting him; and when he should appear as a "refiner's fire", and as "fuller's soap"; when "the day of the Lord" should "burn as an oven"; when he should "purge the blood of Jerusalem", his own blood, and the blood of the Apostles and Prophets shed in it, "from the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning"; the same with "the Holy Ghost and fire" here, or the fire of the Holy Ghost, or the holy Spirit of fire; and is the same with "the wrath to come", and with what is threatened in the context: the unfruitful trees shall be cut down, and cast into the fire", and the "chaff" shall be burnt with unquenchable fire". And as this sense best agrees with the context, it may the rather be thought to be genuine; since John is speaking not to the disciples of Christ, who were not yet called, and who only on the day of Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, in the other sense of this phrase; but to the people of the Jews, some of whom had been baptized by him; and others were asking him questions, others gazing upon him, and wondering what manner of person he was; and multitudes of them continued obdurate and impenitent under his ministry, whom he threatens severely in the context. Add to all this, that the phrase of dipping or baptizing in fire seems to be used in this sense by the Jewish writers. In the Talmud k one puts the question, In what does he (God,) dip? You will say in water, as it is written, "who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand?" Another replies, בנורא טביל, "he dips in fire"; as it is written, "for behold the Lord will come with fire". What is the meaning of טבילותא בנורא, "baptism in fire?" He answers, according to the mind of Rabbah, the root of "dipping in the fire", is what is written; "all that abideth not the fire, ye shall make go" through the water. Dipping in the fire of the law, is a phrase used by the Jews l. The phrases of "dipping, and washing in fire", are also used by Greek m authors.

[mfblume]

So good, it needs to be posted again, even though it's only a few posts earlier.

Originally Posted by RonMurray

"Repentamce and Baptism Are Not Against Grace or Faith"

In Mark 1;15, Mark 16;16, and John 7;38, Jesus tells us that repentamce, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are all directly connected with believing. So it's about believing and obeying the gospel both. It's obedience by faith. Or as James puts it, it's works by faith. But repentance and baptism aren't our works, or our own righteousness, they are the works of God, who works in us and leads us to repentance and baptism according to His word and will. Repentance and baptism both work together for forgiveness and washing away of sins. Forgiveness comes with repentance (2 Chronicles 7;14), and our sins are washed away in baptism (Acts 22;16).

So it's a misconception that repentance and baptism are against grace or faith. Repentance and baptism are given to us by the grace of God for forgiveness and washing away of our sins, and they are done by faith in Jesus Christ. So repentance and baptism, along with the gift of the Holy Spirit, is God working salvation in us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ unto eternal life...

As it is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8. 

[shazeep]

change your mind!
change your mind?
there is more than one kind!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

John the Baptist actually talked about fire of judgment in the very context he mentioned baptism of fire.

Several interpertations:

Barnes

With fire This expression has been variously understood. Some have supposed that John refers to the afflictions and persecutions with which men would be tried under the Gospel;


others, that the word “fire” means judgment or wrath. According to this latter interpretation, the meaning is that he would baptize a portion of mankind - those who were willing to be his followers - with the Holy Spirit, but the rest of mankind - the wicked - with fire; that is, with judgment and wrath. Fire is a symbol of vengeance. See Isa 5:24; Isa 61:2;Isa 66:24 (refs3). If this is the meaning, as seems to be probable, then John says that the ministry of the Messiah would be far more powerful than his was. It would be more searching and testing; and they who were not suited to abide the test would be cast into eternal fire.

Others have supposed, however, that by fire, here, John intends to express the idea that the preaching of the Messiah would be refining, powerful, purifying, as fire is sometimes an emblem of purity, Mal 3:2. It is difficult to ascertain the precise meaning further than that his ministry would be very trying, purifying, searching. Multitudes would be converted; and those who were not true penitents would not be able to abide the trial, and would be driven away.


Gill
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire; referring, either to the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, to be bestowed on the disciples on the day of Pentecost, of which the cloven tongues, like as of fire, which appeared unto them, and sat upon them, were the symbols; which was an instance of the great power and grace of Christ, and of his exaltation at the Father's right hand.

Or rather, this phrase is expressive of the awful judgments which should be inflicted by him on the Jewish nation; when he by his Spirit should "reprove" them for the sin of rejecting him; and when he should appear as a "refiner's fire", and as "fuller's soap"; when "the day of the Lord" should "burn as an oven"; when he should "purge the blood of Jerusalem", his own blood, and the blood of the Apostles and Prophets shed in it, "from the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning"; the same with "the Holy Ghost and fire" here, or the fire of the Holy Ghost, or the holy Spirit of fire; and is the same with "the wrath to come", and with what is threatened in the context: the unfruitful trees shall be cut down, and cast into the fire", and the "chaff" shall be burnt with unquenchable fire". And as this sense best agrees with the context, it may the rather be thought to be genuine; since John is speaking not to the disciples of Christ, who were not yet called, and who only on the day of Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, in the other sense of this phrase; but to the people of the Jews, some of whom had been baptized by him; and others were asking him questions, others gazing upon him, and wondering what manner of person he was; and multitudes of them continued obdurate and impenitent under his ministry, whom he threatens severely in the context. Add to all this, that the phrase of dipping or baptizing in fire seems to be used in this sense by the Jewish writers. In the Talmud k one puts the question, In what does he (God,) dip? You will say in water, as it is written, "who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand?" Another replies, בנורא טביל, "he dips in fire"; as it is written, "for behold the Lord will come with fire". What is the meaning of טבילותא בנורא, "baptism in fire?" He answers, according to the mind of Rabbah, the root of "dipping in the fire", is what is written; "all that abideth not the fire, ye shall make go" through the water. Dipping in the fire of the law, is a phrase used by the Jews l. The phrases of "dipping, and washing in fire", are also used by Greek m authors.

use the water
to put out the fire