Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement

[Gnostic Bishop]

Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

The case of substitutionary atonement that I wish to speak of is when God deemed it moral and just to punish his innocent son Jesus, --- instead of punishing the guilty sinners that God was to condemn.

The strange part of this situation is that God had chosen to sacrifice Jesus even before the potential for sin was created, --- God had yet to create the earth, --- showing that what God was killing Jesus for, --- he had yet to create.

This was an arbitrary choice for God that was completely needless. God could have chosen to punish the guilty, --- what most call justice, --- or God could have found a moral way to forgive us. Instead, God chose to do the unjust and punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

The sacrifice was to pay or bribe God to change his usual policy of punishing the guilty to immorally punishing Jesus. God could have shown mercy and justice but instead decided to use an unjust method to forgive us.

That means that to be a good Christian, you have to accept and embrace the immoral tenet of human sacrifice and the notion that the best form of justice, --- when one wants to forgive someone, --- is to kill an innocent party.

As above so below.

At the end of days, God is to bring his law to earth.

Would you, as an innocent party, think it just if God punished you instead of the guilty?

Do you think that Jesus would ever preach such an immoral form of justice?

Regards
DL

[gardenheart]

The fullness of the Godhead was bodily in Jesus...so in all actuality God willingly sacrificed Himself for us...at least that's the way I see it. No greater love than to lay down your life for your brother

[mfblume]

Not another cynic and mocker. (sigh)

Here we go, folks. Pack your bags, and see them take you on a guilt trip.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by gardenheart

The fullness of the Godhead was bodily in Jesus...so in all actuality God willingly sacrificed Himself for us...at least that's the way I see it. No greater love than to lay down your life for your brother

Exactly.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly.

Amen.

[KeptByTheWord]

Dear Gnostic Bishop:

When you can tell us how you created the world, the universe, the heavens, and all that dwells therein, and can explain to us every mystery of the human body and science, then you might have a right to question God and demand to know why HE created the world and set up the natural laws as he did....

You see these questions that you have won't change the fact that you were created and brought into existence, and you didn't have a say in how you were created - why you were born with blue or brown eyes instead of red eyes, anymore than you explain the mystery of what a black hole is, or how a seed can be put into the ground, and bring forth life that resembles nothing of its original self.

You see, all your questions, reasonings, opinions, and railings against the "unfairness" of the GOD who created this world will matter nothing on the day that you die, except for the fact that you chose to disbelieve, rather than believe. That is your choice of course.

Go on disbelieving in the Creator of this universe, who created you, and who knows your moment to draw your last breath. Disbelieve all you want, that is your choice... but you need to take a moment and be honest with yourself - how did YOU get here? Why planned YOUR life? Why are you here? Why do you look, think and act the way you do? Could it be that the great GOD of this universe cares about you, loves you, and wants the best from you, and asks that you believe in him, while you shake HIM off in disbelief, and say... sorry, I can't believe, I'm mad at you for the choices you made in designing this universe?

And there again, it is your choice to think that you can question, and somehow change the GOD of this universe who spoke it all into existence - and you had no control over the fact that you were born into this world.

No, I don't claim to know all the answers, or understand WHY God chose to set this universe up the way HE did, but after all, HE was the creator, and this is how He chose. We are given a choice - to believe, or disbelieve. There are consequences for either choice.

[good samaritan]

Our sense of right and wrong comes from God. There are definitely things we aren't big enough to understand that will be revealed to us later on. Jesus is God in flesh. God didn't send an eternal son; He sent his begotten son who he fully indwelt through all of the agony and pain. My mind is limited, but I can comprehend the grace that has been bestowed upon me and I hope you will one day repent of your sins and unbelief and turn to such a merciful God.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not another cynic and mocker. (sigh)

Here we go, folks. Pack your bags, and see them take you on a guilt trip.

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

-----------------------------------

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

---------------------------------

It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Amen.

Is God a just judge?

This speaks of Jesus.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement and shows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt or alter his justice and judgement.

Justice usually states that only the punishment of the guilty is acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish the innocent.

God’s corruption of this usual justice is what the bribe or sacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

If you elect your judges in your country, would you vote God in as a fair and just judge knowing that he can be bribed?

Is God a just judge?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Dear Gnostic Bishop:

When you can tell us how you created the world, the universe, the heavens, and all that dwells therein, and can explain to us every mystery of the human body and science, then you might have a right to question God and demand to know why HE created the world and set up the natural laws as he did....

You see these questions that you have won't change the fact that you were created and brought into existence, and you didn't have a say in how you were created - why you were born with blue or brown eyes instead of red eyes, anymore than you explain the mystery of what a black hole is, or how a seed can be put into the ground, and bring forth life that resembles nothing of its original self.

You see, all your questions, reasonings, opinions, and railings against the "unfairness" of the GOD who created this world will matter nothing on the day that you die, except for the fact that you chose to disbelieve, rather than believe. That is your choice of course.

Go on disbelieving in the Creator of this universe, who created you, and who knows your moment to draw your last breath. Disbelieve all you want, that is your choice... but you need to take a moment and be honest with yourself - how did YOU get here? Why planned YOUR life? Why are you here? Why do you look, think and act the way you do? Could it be that the great GOD of this universe cares about you, loves you, and wants the best from you, and asks that you believe in him, while you shake HIM off in disbelief, and say... sorry, I can't believe, I'm mad at you for the choices you made in designing this universe?

And there again, it is your choice to think that you can question, and somehow change the GOD of this universe who spoke it all into existence - and you had no control over the fact that you were born into this world.

No, I don't claim to know all the answers, or understand WHY God chose to set this universe up the way HE did, but after all, HE was the creator, and this is how He chose. We are given a choice - to believe, or disbelieve. There are consequences for either choice.

So you like the idea of punishing the innocent. Ok.

Regards
DL