Greco-Roman culture on the church

[Sister Alvear]

How much or to what point do you think the Greco-Roman culture is found in the church today?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

How much or to what point do you think the Greco-Roman culture is found in the church today?

I'm not sure what you mean.

[Jeffrey]

I'm not sure what you mean either.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

How much or to what point do you think the Greco-Roman culture is found in the church today?

That depends on what one means by "church." The Eastern Rite churches probably have a lot more of a cultural influence and legacy from the Greek world. The RCC of course has its administration (The Curia) based upon the old Roman civil government and bureaucracy. Even the older Roman territorial administrative districts which were called a "diocese" are preserved in Roman Catholic tradition and policy.

The influence of classical and later philosophical traditions involving the "Logos" are clearly seen in the Gospel of John. John was obviously attempting to describe the Christian God in Neo-Platonic terminology in John 1:1-12.

Daniel's "image" (head of gold, shoulders and arms of silver, etc.) is clearly intended to play off of Hesiod's older work in the Theogony. The sin of Nebuchadnezzar in seeking to extend his "golden age" out past his appointed time is the basis of John's "Mark of the Beast" in Revelation 13.

To even understand this apocalyptic vision we have to go back and consider the themes and lessons that the Greeks (Hesiod) had understood in the context of this same "image." The behavior of Chronos in the Greek myths parallel the egomania of the later Babylonian king in Daniel's work.

The Greek god Chronos had sought to make certain that his "time" was eternal and that his "way" would always be the only way. He destroyed all of those who sought to succeed him (in this case his own children) - failing only to devour the youngest, Zeus.

Nebuchadnezzar dreams of Hesiod's image and the way that it represents the passage of time (the succession of empires). Daniel comes along (Daniel 2:38) and points out that Nebuchadnezzar was "the head of gold" (something pretty impressive!), but that he would be followed by others who would take his place. This wasn't good enough for the Babylonian king.

So, he sets out to build an image like the one he saw in his dream - only instead of following the Greek mythological pattern (gold, then silver and etc.) he made his image all of gold. In other words, Nebuchadnezzar was symbolically saying, "I shall never pass away and my kingdom here on earth shall be eternal! There is NO tomorrow! Only ME! Only the way I see it! Only the way it is RIGHT NOW!"

The golden image was 6 cubits wide and 60 cubits high. When 6 musical instruments were played everyone was to bow down and worship the the image. 6, 60 and 6 (Daniel 3:1-5).

I think that the symbolism here gives us an idea of just what the "Mark of the Beast" truly is intended as meaning. "The Beast" is "the creature" or the created one or thing. When someone who is "created" and thus "mortal" seeks to defy the passage of time and to usurp the plan and will of God (Genesis 8:22) for things to change, blossom and then to grow old and die and that new life be born afresh they are repeating the sin of Nebuchadnezzar and his "666 image."

However one choses to understand Revelation 13, and Daniel 2, and Daniel 3, you must take Hesiod's earlier Greek work into account because Daniel and John were clearly interacting with it.

[Hoovie]

Yeah - WHAT PEL SAID...

Just kidding. I don't have a clue, but it sure does sound good Pel.

[commonsense]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Yeah - WHAT PEL SAID...

Just kidding. I don't have a clue, but it sure does sound good Pel.

That's my thought also....

[pelathais]

One element of Greek philosophy/theology that is often overlooked is the movement that was being made toward monotheism. With the numerous gods having such familiar names and such enduring stories associated with them we ourselves can get sort of "stuck" in viewing Greek theology in a very polytheistic manner.

As the ancient world aged and Greek philosophy began to take over for Greek mythology, the gods and goddesses were increasingly seen as being symbols for the forces of nature and not actual personalities themselves. In Neoplatonic thought, Zeus becomes a quality known as the "Demiurge" of "mind of God." (See "Logos").

It is to this god (or "God?") that Epimenides of Knossos directs a hymn of praise. He is responding to the fact that on the island of Crete there was a tomb dedicated to Zeus. This tomb is very ancient and was probably associated with a fertility god in the Minoan era before the old Minoan gods were subsumed by the Greek pantheon. Many Greeks took grave offense to the idea that Zeus ever needed a tomb - so much so that the word for "Cretan" (someone from the island of Crete) - krētizō - became synonymous with the word "liar."

"They fashioned a tomb for Thee, oh holy and high One,
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies,
But Thou art not dead, forever Thou art risen and alive,
For in Thee we live and move and have our being."

It was Epimenides who advocated the construction of altars to an "Unknown God." The associations here with Acts 17, and Titus 1:12 should be obvious. Paul himself quotes the ideas of Epimenides right into Holy Writ.

[Jeffrey]

Greco-Roman culture, as argued by NT Wright, certainly has an influence in the Christian beginnings, and only by understanding some of the nuances of that culture, can we fully appreciate (and at times even begin to understand) much of the NT writings.

I believe Wright argues these primary influences:

1) Judaism
2) Hellenism
3) Greco-Roman culture

None were bad or evil in and of themselves. They were the landscape though... and the context that gives much of the writings during this time meaning. For instance, the word "gospel," the symbol of the "cross," the issue of Kings and Kingdoms, taxes and carrying a Roman soldiers garment. The political understanding of the Roman governors, Jewish government, etc... all very important.

[Jeffrey]

And when all else fails... what Pel said lol