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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1  
Old 04-06-2007, 01:34 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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The Husband is the Head of the Wife

I just realized why the opposition to the truth that the topic of 1Cor 11 is headship. If Paul is discussing headship then Paul is tying in hair and coverings with headship....the problem? This throws a monkey wrench into the notion that Paul is addressing the topic of hair and coverings due to local customs only. It implies that the woman is to have a sign on her head that is due to HER headship...being her husband.

The ironic thing about this is I was thinking it might throw a monkey wrench into the idea of those that disagree with women preachers or teachers or other types of leadership positions. Why?

The NET bible commentary points out

2 tn Or "the husband is the head of his wife." The same Greek words translated "man" and "woman" can mean, as determined by context, "husband" and "wife" respectively. Such an approach is followed by NAB, TEV, NRSV, and NLT (with some variations).

The greek word for man is
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

The greek word for woman is
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

If that is true then consider again what Paul says here
1Ti 2:9 Likewise the women are to dress in suitable apparel, with modesty and self-control. Their adornment must not be with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothing,
1Ti 2:10 but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God.
1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
1Ti 2:15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.

Note the last part seems to have men and women here tied more directly to marriage whereas in the first part it is more general. Adam and Eve were husband and wife. Woman bear children. Note also the same theme from 1Cor of Adam being created first and then Eve

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
1Ti 2:15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.

Before the NT church only men could learn. Paul is now introducing something radical...that women may learn too. If this is about husbands and wifes could it be that what Paul has in mind is that the woman who learns along with her husband is not to be spiritually superior to her husband by way of being his teacher too? And not necessarily against her teaching or speaking publically, since we know there were female prophetesses.

Also the word authority here means she is not to lord it over him or have dominion over him.

VWS The verb means to do a thing one's self; hence, to exercise authority. The A.V. usurp authority is a mistake. Rend. to have or exercise dominion over.


RWP It comes from auṫhentes, a self-doer, a master, autocrat. It occurs in the papyri (substantive authentēs, master, verb authenteō, to domineer, adjective authentikos, authoritative, “authentic”). Modern Greek has aphentes = Effendi = “Mark.”

NET 20 tn According to BDAG 150 s.αὐθεντέω this Greek verb means "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to" (cf. JB "tell a man what to do").

Now, of course if one believes a leader is someone that can give orders to or dictate too, you might have a problem here. I don't believe that a Pastor or leader or teacher is a dictator in the kingdom of God and if that is true then Paul is not forbidding a woman to lead in some capacity here as long as she realizes Adam came first, not woman.

I know the libs and the cons are gonna hate me for that, but alas such is the life of the persecuted mod
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  #2  
Old 04-06-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I just realized why the opposition to the truth that the topic of 1Cor 11 is headship. If Paul is discussing headship then Paul is tying in hair and coverings with headship....the problem? This throws a monkey wrench into the notion that Paul is addressing the topic of hair and coverings due to local customs only. It implies that the woman is to have a sign on her head that is due to HER headship...being her husband.

The ironic thing about this is I was thinking it might throw a monkey wrench into the idea of those that disagree with women preachers or teachers or other types of leadership positions. Why?

The NET bible commentary points out

2 tn Or "the husband is the head of his wife." The same Greek words translated "man" and "woman" can mean, as determined by context, "husband" and "wife" respectively. Such an approach is followed by NAB, TEV, NRSV, and NLT (with some variations).

The greek word for man is
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

The greek word for woman is
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

If that is true then consider again what Paul says here
1Ti 2:9 Likewise the women are to dress in suitable apparel, with modesty and self-control. Their adornment must not be with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothing,
1Ti 2:10 but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God.
1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
1Ti 2:15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.

Note the last part seems to have men and women here tied more directly to marriage whereas in the first part it is more general. Adam and Eve were husband and wife. Woman bear children. Note also the same theme from 1Cor of Adam being created first and then Eve

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
1Ti 2:15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.

Before the NT church only men could learn. Paul is now introducing something radical...that women may learn too. If this is about husbands and wifes could it be that what Paul has in mind is that the woman who learns along with her husband is not to be spiritually superior to her husband by way of being his teacher too? And not necessarily against her teaching or speaking publically, since we know there were female prophetesses.

Also the word authority here means she is not to lord it over him or have dominion over him.

VWS The verb means to do a thing one's self; hence, to exercise authority. The A.V. usurp authority is a mistake. Rend. to have or exercise dominion over.


RWP It comes from auṫhentes, a self-doer, a master, autocrat. It occurs in the papyri (substantive authentēs, master, verb authenteō, to domineer, adjective authentikos, authoritative, “authentic”). Modern Greek has aphentes = Effendi = “Mark.”

NET 20 tn According to BDAG 150 s.αὐθεντέω this Greek verb means "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to" (cf. JB "tell a man what to do").

Now, of course if one believes a leader is someone that can give orders to or dictate too, you might have a problem here. I don't believe that a Pastor or leader or teacher is a dictator in the kingdom of God and if that is true then Paul is not forbidding a woman to lead in some capacity here as long as she realizes Adam came first, not woman.

I know the libs and the cons are gonna hate me for that, but alas such is the life of the persecuted mod

This coming from an unmarried!
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  #3  
Old 04-06-2007, 01:37 PM
Actaeon Actaeon is offline
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As one wise man said, "Since the husband is the wife's head, it stands to reason that she can therefore put any hat on it she desires."
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:37 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
This coming from an unmarried!
Of course....I reject the absurd notion that I need a wife with uncut hair to have protection lol...I need a wife for OTHER reasons actually
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Of course....I reject the absurd notion that I need a wife with uncut hair to have protection lol...I need a wife for OTHER reasons actually
They are?
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  #6  
Old 04-06-2007, 01:42 PM
Michlow Michlow is offline
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But still....why can't a wife teach her husband anything? just the act of getting married or being born male doesn't make you inherently smarter...
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:43 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
They are?
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  #8  
Old 04-06-2007, 01:44 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michlow View Post
But still....why can't a wife teach her husband anything? just the act of getting married or being born male doesn't make you inherently smarter...
It's talking about being HIS teacher in spiritual things. Men previously were supposed to learn in silence and the woman did not learn at all. The only way she learned was after her husband taught her at home. Now they were BOTH allowed to learn in silence...no role reversal here
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
That is only a part.
It is my observation that most people (men especially) don't find out how selfish they are until they get married.

Marriage and family calls for a lot of sel sacrifice.

But it is stil good!
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  #10  
Old 04-06-2007, 01:48 PM
Michlow Michlow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
It's talking about being HIS teacher in spiritual things. Men previously were supposed to learn in silence and the woman did not learn at all. The only way she learned was after her husband taught her at home. Now they were BOTH allowed to learn in silence...no role reversal here
Oh, Ok. I thought you were saying, that women were allowed to learn, as long as they didn't try to teach their husbands anything.

Like women can teach their husbands anything anyway....in 10 years, mine still hasn't learned what the hamper is for
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