Gimmicks, Programs and Performances

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Secondly, and I believe this is the biggest obstacle to fulfilling a true anointing, is the two-fold desire to develop new-fangled programs in which the preacher can take the credit for design. There have been minister after minister come through bringing their 12 Tribe concept of church growth, prayer seminars to enhance church growth and revival, the 12 step program for a closer walk with God, labeling revivals as "crusades" attaching their names to it, plays, poetry, costumes, army men a broken down volkswagon and the apocalypse, the grim reaper, lights camera ACTION! ...yada yada yada.

While the intentions may be fantastic, there is an element of self promotion involved that if it takes root, it means more dates for preaching, possibly a book, a CD, and money money money, name building, name building, LEGACY!

Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?

Coming from a very large and prolific church in the UPC, I have seen just about every program, crusade, and special ministry come through. Interestingly enough churches invent quite a few of these internally.

I saw one form letter from a church and it laid out yet another comprehensive ministry program of "stuff."

I was astounded when I got to the bottom and read who it was from...the person organizing and spearheadding this program is the pastor's daughter who is now the "Pastor" of that ministry-program! I had to laugh. Pastor? Maybe anti-pastor is more appropriate.


Pastor...of a program??

Originally Posted by Steadfast

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?

I know of a church that spent 40,000.00 on a man to teach them how to 'Develop the Leaders Within You"...it's been four years, and the whole program was rendered useless, as nothing was 'followed through' with. Appparently the Pastor got tired of holding each of his leaders accountable for their 'role', as there are very few concepts still being used from this program.

Are we as the church, trying to mimic something that we see other secular churches using to 'grow' a church?

Prayer and fasting would still work today- if we would use them as the tools God has placed in our hands.

[Malvaro]

imo, corporate programs began to grow as individual outreach efforts began to decline and churches sought to find a "stop-gap" fix.... can one locate an instance where the early church had to rely on corporate outreachs? no....

we get our perfect vision for evangelism from Acts 20:20....

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

the Gospel was spread through the proclamation of Christ in public places (work/marketplaces/etc) and one-on-one in homes....

[Thad]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?

some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.

I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes

[rgcraig]

I was actually shocked to read a couple weeks ago many voicing their opinions about the "show" and "program" at GC on the platform (from UPC ministers).

Is it what most have come to expect?

Originally Posted by Thad

some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.

I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes

I have said this sooo many times!!

I think I read somewhere that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Let's lift up JESUS, and watch HIM draw the masses...

[Carpenter]

I remember this guy years ago (if I said his name most of you would chuckle and say, yea, I know him...) came through like a storm and tried to instute his 12 tribe concept of cell groups and church growth.

For about a year or so we walked around like idiots asking..."Are you in the tribe of Isichar?" or "What tribe are you in, or who is your tribe leader?" I just loved seeing the horrified looks on the faces of our visitors!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:




Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?

I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.

QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?

Let me say from the onset, I have tremendous respect for Rick Warren and his gifts of leadership and his demonstrative skills. But even now the whole purpose driven church program has gone by the wayside. Reading in Christianity Today last week they detailed how that it is pretty much a dead program.

So with that in mind, there will be a shift of prophetic driven organic church that very much mirror the normal church structure and functions of the Book of Acts church.

The bar on how we do church will be lowered, but the requirements of those involved will be quite high.

The current program, professional driven church that meets in special buildings will be replaced. Why? because it produces basically good church members but lacks in producing quality disciples are trained and equipped to do the ministry of Jesus will be replaced. It has to, God won't tolerate it any longer!

[Kutless]

I don't know if this applies here, excuse my ignorance. But some people have specific talents.

Maybe someone could write a very effective drama or come up with a great idea to bring in people. Why not take advantage?