voting or casting lots

[Sister Alvear]

At convention someone asked me how were people put in office in the Bible...Can some of you give an opinion?

voting? casting lots? appointed? any other method?

[Amanah]

Casting lots didn't work out very well, that is the way Matthias was picked and you never heard from him again.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

The other time you hear of casting lots, the Romans were gambling for Jesus garments.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

[Amanah]

1 Timothy 3 gives guidance on how to pick leaders. Men of good report with a proven ministry would be elevated into leadership.

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

1 Timothy 3 gives guidance on how to pick leaders. Men of good report with a proven ministry would be elevated into leadership.

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

But how are they to be elevated? Do the elders vote? Is the entire local church to vote? Does a single person assign the position without any input from serving ministers or the congregation? What is the "process"?

[Amanah]

The Apostles prayed and fasted and ordained elders.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Casting lots didn't work out very well, that is the way Matthias was picked and you never heard from him again.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

The next time you hear of casting lots, the Romans were gambling for Jesus garments.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Casting lots was an often used method whereby God made His will known. Here are some examples were casting lots was used:

• David divided the Priests by lots: 1 Chronicles 24:5
• The land of Canaan divided by lots: Numbers 26:55-56; Joshua 15, Joshua 16:1-10, Joshua 16:17
• Jonathan was detected of violating King Saul’s command by lots: 1 Samuel 14:41-42
• Achan’s disobedience was discovered by lots: Joshua 7:16-18
• The sacrificial goat and the scapegoat were chosen by lots: Leviticus 16:8-10
• Moses choosing the 70 elders was by lot: Numbers 11:16, Numbers 11:24-26

The issue of Matthias not being mentioned again after Acts 1, the same thing could be said for many of the other apostles. Here is a breakdown of those mentioned and those who are not:

1. Yes - Peter
2. Yes – James (the elder/see Acts 12:1-2)
3. Yes – John
4. No – Andrew
5. Yes – Philip
6. No – Thomas
7. No – Bartholomew
8. No – Matthew
9. Yes – James (“The Lessor.” May have written James’ epistle)
10. No – Simon Zealotes
11. N0 – Judas (Jude, brother of James)
12. No – Matthias

Finally, although historical record is not comparable with the inspired Word of God, they do lend some credence to the importance placed on Matthias in what is said to be early church history. Here are some quotes I found:

St Clement of Alexandria from STROMATA (VI: 13), “Not that they became apostles through being chosen for some distinguished peculiarity of nature, since Judas was also chosen along with them. But they were capable of becoming apostles on being chosen by Him who foresees even ultimate issues. Matthias, accordingly, who was not chosen along with them, on showing himself worthy of becoming an apostle, is substituted for Judas.”

Matthias is one of the five Apostles credited by Armenian tradition with evangelizing Armenia. These five were Thaddaeus, Bartholomew, Simon the Cananaean, Andrew and Matthias. (ISBE, Matthias).

Irenaeus refers to Matthias as being "ordained" in the place of Judas. No trace is left of an apocryphal "Gospel According to Matthias." It was a heretical work referred to by Origen (Hom. on Luke i) and Eusebius. (Eusebius HE 111 25, 6).

Hilgenfeld identifies Matthias with Nathanael (compare NATHANAEL). He was traditionally the author of the "Gospel of Matthias," a heretical work referred to by Origen (Hom. on Lk, i), by Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica, III, 25, 6) and by Hieronymus (Proem in Matth.). No trace of it is left. The Gnostic Basilides (circa 133 AD) and his son Isidor claimed to ground their doctrine in the "Gospel of Basilides" on the teaching Matthias received directly from the Saviour (Hippol., vii.20) (compare Hennecke, Neutestamentliche Apokryphen, 167). Various parts of the apocryphal "Contendings of the Apostles" deal with the imprisonment and blinding of Matthias by the Ethiopian cannibals, and his rescue by Andrew (compare Budge, Contendings of the Apostles, II, 163, 164, 267-88; see also ANDREW). According to the Martyrdom of Matthias (Budge, II, 289-94) he was sent to Damascus, and died at Phalaeon, a city of Judea. Other sources mention Jerusalem as the place of Matthias' ministry and burial. -C. M. Kerr

There is a writing named ‘Traditions of Matthias’, also associated as Gospel of Matthias believed to be compiled in the first half of the 2nd..century. St Clement of Alexandria has quoted from this in his STROMATA and has observed that the teachings of Matthias are used by some Gnostic groups. Hippolytus has commented that Basilides and his son Isidore who are known to be Gnostics having learnt from “secret words” of Matthias which he had received from the private teachings of our Savior. Origen too has quoted from ‘Traditions of Matthias’. Eusobius has grouped Gospel of Matthias along with Gospel of Peter and Gospel of Thomas. This book having extensively used by Gnostics indicate its heretic nature and obviously this has not found canonical acceptance. The fact that this is found to have been compiled only in the second century proves that the Apostle Matthias is not the true author. However, it is worth noting that the then generation found Matthias at par with Peter and Thomas to have used his name in later day authoring as it used to be a common practice then. Probably, some Gnostic preacher would have worked behind it to create authenticity to such of their heretic teachings.

So, I think casting lots worked out pretty good for Matthias.

[Amanah]

I am contemplating the post above. I have heard it said that Matthias was incorrectly chosen and that Paul was supposed to be the 12th Apostle.

otherwise, Paul is the 13th Apostle . . .

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I am contemplating the post above. I have heard it said that Matthias was incorrectly chosen and that Paul was supposed to be the 12th Apostle.

otherwise, Paul is the 13th Apostle . . .

Peter’s words in Acts 1:21-22 gives four points that must be met before a man could be “numbered with” the originally chosen twelve apostles. Without these four qualifications, no one could biblically be a “part of this” specific “ministry” (see Acts 1:17, Acts 1:25). The following is a list of these four points and whether or not Judas, Matthias, or Paul met their criterion:

1. men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us (verse 21)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

2. Beginning from the baptism of John (verse 22)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

3. unto that same day that he was taken up from us, (verse 22)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

4. must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (verse 22)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

We know that Judas and Matthias met these four points. However, Paul did not, and as a result, Paul could not have been Judas’ replacement. This importance of this four-point criterion has witness in the New Testament, as seen in this verse:

Matthew 19:27-28
(27) Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
(28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 10:39-41
(39) And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
(40) but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
(41) not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Luke 22:28-30
(28) Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
(29) And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
(30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Peter 5:1
(1) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

After the Holy Ghost fell, the Bible says Matthias was God’s choice to replace Judas. This is found in Acts 2:14. There it says, “Peter, standing up with the eleven…” The “eleven” plus Peter equals 12 apostles. This is inspired scripture so I have to believe this math is accurate.

[Amanah]

Paul was an apostle though wasn't he?

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Paul was an apostle though wasn't he?

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Yes, Paul most certainly was.

The Bible lists other apostles that were not members of the original chosen twelve. (See Matthew 10:1-4) Here are those verses:

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

James was not one of the original 12. He was martyred in Acts 12:2. Afterward, the Elders separate Paul and Barnabas to go and do a specific task (see Acts 13:2-3).

Acts 14:14 When the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard what was happening, they were very upset. They rushed into the crowd

Barnabas was not one of the original 12.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

“Sent” is the Greek word “apostellō” (see Strong’s G649). Strong’s defines it as: set apart, that is, (by implication) to send out (properly on a mission) literally or figuratively: - put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty]. Barsabas and Matthias where probably in this group of seventy “sent” ones, which explains why they both qualified for Peter’s four-point criteria for the casting of lots.