The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

What scriptural supports can you share with us to support that the blood is applied in all three steps?

I love typologies also ...but I think we often try to fit Christ and the salvation he provided to fit our theologies .... Why do we insist to think that Christ and the salvation provided points to typologies? All of these typologies point to him. Yet none are better than this new covenant!!!!!

Undoubtedlyt the Passover is a type but so is the tabernacle plan ... although it is misconstrued by many.... Phil, why do you think the writer of Hebrews uses tabernacle typology to describe what our Hight Priest has done for us?

Not Bro. Jones but Hebrews speaks of the FIRST primary fulfilment in Christ and his redemptive work there is no disagreement there however that work Christ fulfilled as the sacrifice and the High Priest is fulfilled in us as priests. We are priests thus blood-water-oil- sanctifies us and enables us to walk with him through the tabernacle of worship and service till we reach the Holiest of All.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My friend Sab and I have a major disagreement here rather than justification a measure of sanctification has taken place in that he separated himself to seek God and God sent him a preacher with sayings words that complete the sanctification and declare him justified by giving the the HG and remitting his sins in baptism. I think you have the cart before the horse though we are own the same train. Now Sab you are smarter than I and certainly more wordy but sorry you are wrong on this but we are yet friends before you scald me think it through. The religious world says justified THEN sanctified but actually everything is SET APART unto God and from this world that is repentance BEFORE justification takes place!

Sorry, Bro, the word declares otherwise:

(Romans 5.1) "Therefore, being JUSTIFIED by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through whom also we have access by FAITH into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You cannot do as the Jewish religious leaders and put your own requirements on those coming to God. Twisting scripture to suit your predetermined doctrines, is adding to the Word. FOLKS ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH (BELIEF) IN THE WORK OF CALVARY. Of course there is much more to follow by the sovereign work of the Lord, but you should not exclude those who have been justified by faith just because they don't fit your understanding, IN THIS YOU ARE IN ERROR.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Sorry, Bro, the word declares otherwise:

(Romans 5.1) "Therefore, being JUSTIFIED by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through whom also we have access by FAITH into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You cannot do as the Jewish religious leaders and put your own requirements on those coming to God. Twisting scripture to suit your predetermined doctrines, is adding to the Word. FOLKS ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH (BELIEF) IN THE WORK OF CALVARY. Of course there is much more to follow by the sovereign work of the Lord, but you should not exclude those who have been justified by faith just because they don't fit your understanding, IN THIS YOU ARE IN ERROR.

Sanctification preceeds justification separating yourself from sin and the world and turing to God takes place BEFORE he justifies anyone. It is called repentance!

[JN Anderson]

Non-sequitur Daniel.

I'll respond more to the point later. But, as it concerns baptismal regeneration (BR hereon), this doctrine rests upon the idea of grace being conferred, regardless of faith, at water baptism. This is why padeobaptists continue to baptize infants, as you know. Oneness soteriology never speaks of grace being conferred at water baptism. Unless you can prove me wrong I believe that those are some very irreconcilable differences.

There may be Oneness believers believing in BR, but that does not make it a tenet of Oneness soteriology. There are many divergent views (from established orthodoxy) in most any organized group of believers whether they be a sect of Christianity or a faction of Islam.

BR and baptism in Oneness soteriology contain separate and individual concepts apart from each other. For example, baptism, in my view, is submission to the plan of God. This is something that every Christian would never delay or refuse. BR, on the other hand, is passive. BR expects grace to be conferred at the consummation of the baptismal ceremony. It doesn't really require faith, just the act itself. Brings new meaning to "holy water" I'm sure.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

Non-sequitur Daniel.

I'll respond more to the point later. But, as it concerns baptismal regeneration (BR hereon), this doctrine rests upon the idea of grace being conferred, regardless of faith, at water baptism. This is why padeobaptists continue to baptize infants, as you know. Oneness soteriology never speaks of grace being conferred at water baptism. Unless you can prove me wrong I believe that those are some very irreconcilable differences.

There may be Oneness believers believing in BR, but that does not make it a tenet of Oneness soteriology. There are many divergent views (from established orthodoxy) in most any organized group of believers whether they be a sect of Christianity or a faction of Islam.

BR and baptism in Oneness soteriology contain separate and individual concepts apart from each other. For example, baptism, in my view, is submission to the plan of God. This is something that every Christian would never delay or refuse. BR, on the other hand, is passive. BR expects grace to be conferred at the consummation of the baptismal ceremony. It doesn't really require faith, just the act itself. Brings new meaning to "holy water" I'm sure.

Sab you are right on concerning BR that is why the Catholics-Lutherans_Presbyterians - baptize infants no faith or repentance is required the act itself confers certain grace on the one being baptized thus regenerated. Look at my post concerning your view of justification before baptism and analysis before answering?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Sanctification preceeds justification separating yourself from sin and the world and turing to God takes place BEFORE he justifies anyone. It is called repentance!

Not so, justification proceeds sanctification, justification is what Jesus did for us at Calvary, sanctification is what happens as we continue to walk and grow in the Lord. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN ERROR THAT OUR WORKS JUSTIFIY US.

This is preaching that denies the power of Calvary, one is justified when he makes reconciliation with an offended party, the work of Calvary is finished.
Repentance is not in the crying and sorrying, it is in the turning away from the previous actions.

Gotta go, check back later to see if you get straightened out.

[SDG]

Nothing like absurd humor to reveal the absurd, my erudite kinsman.

Your doctrine is solid, Sabellius and agree with many of your points. Surely, the BRs have affected the Oneness movement in many harmful ways.

I will show how many well-respected, and oft perhaps deified, Oneness soteriological writers infer that grace is being conferred at water baptism - a sacrament that activates grace.

No time now ... but will address your questions.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Not so, justification proceeds sanctification, justification is what Jesus did for us at Calvary, sanctification is what happens as we continue to walk and grow in the Lord. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN ERROR THAT OUR WORKS JUSTIFIY US.

This is preaching that denies the power of Calvary, one is justified when he makes reconciliation with an offended party, the work of Calvary is finished.
Repentance is not in the crying and sorrying, it is in the turning away from the previous actions.

Gotta go, check back later to see if you get straightened out.

Sabellius ... Crajak, a true theologian, is pointing to a solid example of how this BR doctrine has seeped throughout the movement .... and condemns everyone else w/ a divergent view.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Not so, justification proceeds sanctification, justification is what Jesus did for us at Calvary, sanctification is what happens as we continue to walk and grow in the Lord. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN ERROR THAT OUR WORKS JUSTIFIY US.

This is preaching that denies the power of Calvary, one is justified when he makes reconciliation with an offended party, the work of Calvary is finished.
Repentance is not in the crying and sorrying, it is in the turning away from the previous actions.

Gotta go, check back later to see if you get straightened out.

NOT ONE statement was made by me that OUR works justify us. Faith is NOT our works though it is a WORK see Jn. 6:29, Repentance is a work though not a work of man but of God he grants it-baptism is an operation of the Spirit NOT of man- the HGB is a gift!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However to recieve justification YOU must turn from this world to God thus sanctification inpart!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Nothing like absurd humor to reveal th absurd, my erudite kinsman.

Your doctrine is solid, Sabellius and agree with many of your points. Surely, the BRs have affected the Oneness movement in many harmful ways.

I will show how many well-respected, and oft perhaps deified, Oneness soteriological writers infer that of grace being conferred at water baptism - a sacrament that activates grace.

No time now ... but will address your questions.

I contest this I do NOT know ONE Apostolic preacher who teaches BR!!!!!!

You faith only folks read works and BR INTO ANY response man has to the gospel. Any obedience is seen as works or BR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!