The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[SDG]

Now that Sabellius and Theo have admitted that we are justified before any baptism [definitely a post PAJC view] would you then admit the many old time PAJCers and many present day pseudo PAJCers do not hold this view at all?

And what do you make of ... the righteous, or just shall live by faith?

Well, I see that no one has changed their mind in these 971 posts and no one has presented anything I had not already heard before.

Maybe it is time to look at a different (I think more perfect) OT type for salvation and deliverance, the passover that brought deliverance from captivity to the Israelites.

Would the first born of a household have been spared if they had not obeyed ALL of Moses instruction? Would a family have escaped Egypt if they had used an unqualified lamb? Would the first born have been spared if the father had put blood only on the door posts but not the lintel or the Lintel and one door post?

I believe the application of the blood in the passover is a more accurate type of salvation than the tabernacle plan. I believe that the blood is applied in all three acts of faith on the part of the believer: repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost! If you miss any of them you fail in all of them and the assigned judgment will accompany the lack of proper application of the instruction of God's word!

Further, failure to consume the lamb AND the bitter herbs and packing of your bags in anticipation of a God ordained and empowered journey will also result in loss of access to the fullness of God's promise!

Another hit and run... gotta hit the road and get to a customer site!

have a fun day around the mulberry bush!

[AGAPE]

Originally Posted by philjones

Well, I see that no one has changed their mind in these 971 posts and no one has presented anything I had not already heard before.

Maybe it is time to look at a different (I think more perfect) OT type for salvation and deliverance, the passover that brought deliverance from captivity to the Israelites.

Would the first born of a household have been spared if they had not obeyed ALL of Moses instruction? Would a family have escaped Egypt if they had used an unqualified lamb? Would the first born have been spared if the father had put blood only on the door posts but not the lintel or the Lintel and one door post?

I believe the application of the blood in the passover is a more accurate type of salvation than the tabernacle plan. I believe that the blood is applied in all three acts of faith on the part of the believer: repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost! If you miss any of them you fail in all of them and the assigned judgment will accompany the lack of proper application of the instruction of God's word!

Further, failure to consume the lamb AND the bitter herbs and packing of your bags in anticipation of a God ordained and empowered journey will also result in loss of access to the fullness of God's promise!

But I don't like herbs.....

It really didn't say herbs it was just a misprint.
The original word says garlic, or someother fine food in egypt

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

What seems to be lost in this discussion is that the blood of the OT sacrifices was shed as a covering for sin and an atonement. A primary weakness in the offering up of bulls and goats was that it could never deal with the guilt of sin. Every sacrifice only drove home once again man's sinfulness and heightened his sense of guilt before a holy God.

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Hebrews 10:1-3)

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (V.11)

It was only when Jesus offered Himself up as the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world that the sins (that had been covered by the shed blood of the OT sacrifices) could be forgiven and thus no longer remembered. Hebrews 10:15-18 says,

"The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this.

First he says:
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Now note with me an important point made in verses 1 & 2.

"For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins."

The writer of Hebrews says that if the sacrifices offered could have made perfect those who drew near to worship God, they would have stopped offering sacrifices because they would have been cleansed once for all, and would not have felt guilt for sin.

Because Jesus offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for us that is exactly what happens today. Those who draw near to God in faith to worship are cleansed once and for all and no longer feel guilty for sin. Why? Because "we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (V.10) and "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (V.14)

"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."(VV.19-22)

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that the new and living way is opened up to us through His (Christ's) body offered up for us and we enter into The Most Holy Place by the blood of His sacrifice, NOT by some ceremonial act such as baptism.

Note that it's all about a cleansed conscience that is the result of a pure heart and a body that has been washed with water by the Word. "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word," (Ephesians 5:26)

Thank you TB for finally conceding to what I have said all along took awhile to get you to Heb.10 but your commentary is good. NOTE the guilty conscience is cleansed when the BODY(not soul) is washed with pure WATER!!!! ONLY in the water of baptism WHEN the BODY is washed-bathed-baptized-the answer of a good consience or the clearing reckoning take place. F.F. Bruce says Eph 5:26 is baptism also washing by the Rhema not logos the SPOKEN word or invocation of the name. Little by little. Thank you Jesus makes me want to If this was only a public discussion the fun I would be having. Forget the Campbellites how about you guys????????????????

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by philjones

Well, I see that no one has changed their mind in these 971 posts and no one has presented anything I had not already heard before.

Maybe it is time to look at a different (I think more perfect) OT type for salvation and deliverance, the passover that brought deliverance from captivity to the Israelites.

Would the first born of a household have been spared if they had not obeyed ALL of Moses instruction? Would a family have escaped Egypt if they had used an unqualified lamb? Would the first born have been spared if the father had put blood only on the door posts but not the lintel or the Lintel and one door post?

I believe the application of the blood in the passover is a more accurate type of salvation than the tabernacle plan. I believe that the blood is applied in all three acts of faith on the part of the believer: repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost! If you miss any of them you fail in all of them and the assigned judgment will accompany the lack of proper application of the instruction of God's word!

Further, failure to consume the lamb AND the bitter herbs and packing of your bags in anticipation of a God ordained and empowered journey will also result in loss of access to the fullness of God's promise!

Nobody is denying that there is access to the fullness of God's promise to "...great and wonderful things of which you know not of..."

The discussion is the entry and begining of this journey, in your example it was when Joshua BELIEVED. His faith drove his works, so if we by our teaching/preaching can bring folks to faith, their faith will drive their works.

Romans 4.3 "...Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

verses 5-8, "But to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

"just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteounsess APART from works:"

"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

To declare an individual who has recieved faith in the work of Calvary and turned from their sins, NOT SAVED, IS TO DENY THE WORD.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

I believe that Justification occurs before any baptism. I believe that Justification refers, naturally, to the declaring of an individual as righteous. God declares us just. How else could the Spirt of God enter Cornelius (c.f. Acts 10:1-46) prior to water baptism?

I believe that baptism requires a synergistic effort and that it means both--symbolic and that genuine spiritual realities are conferred at water baptism. Symbolicly, we are buried with Him in the likeness of His death (Colossians 2:12) and are identified with Christ at baptism. Literally, we are now in the "Kingdom of God"; have a record of sin with a penalty of death, remitted or discharged.

How can one "need" something yet receiving what is needed is not important? No analogy is perfect, but here goes one. When HP tells me that a power cord is needed to operate my laptop then I would logically apply a severe degree of importance to the power cord. Because, if I fail in this then my laptop will not be operable. In other words, I do not think we can make a logical distinction between needing to be baptized and baptism essentiality, as it regards baptism alone.

Alicea's view is an anachronism. I cannot substantiate this presently (not enough time), but I believe the biblical writers as well as many trinitarian fathers placed very strong opinions about baptism and a good amount held to baptismal regeneration (baptismal regeneration is not the position of myself nor the UPCI). I believe that the idea of baptism being optional is anachronistic to the normative view.

My friend Sab and I have a major disagreement here rather than justification a measure of sanctification has taken place in that he separated himself to seek God and God sent him a preacher with sayings words that complete the sanctification and declare him justified by giving the the HG and remitting his sins in baptism. I think you have the cart before the horse though we are own the same train. Now Sab you are smarter than I and certainly more wordy but sorry you are wrong on this but we are yet friends before you scald me think it through. The religious world says justified THEN sanctified but actually everything is SET APART unto God and from this world that is repentance BEFORE justification takes place!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

A lot of verbosity, some concessions, more analogies and the same stuff repackaged.



Can't agree with you more. We are definitely on the same page. By stating that we are declared righteous before God before any baptism then you have conceded that if someone were to die before being water baptized or Spirit baptized they are saved ... a view that many in your ranks will not admit.



I too believe we are identified with Christ in baptism. I also believe it's necessarily important to be obedient to all of His commands. This being an initial command He has made for all of His children. Willful disobedience of this command will send you to hell ... as will not loving your neighbor or any other of His necessary and important commands - it constitutes unbelief my learned brother

If they aren't all necessary and important He wouldn't ask us to do it. Then, of course, there are promises and gifts ... the baptism of the Holy Ghost being one.

However, to claim some type of synergy takes place during baptism is being BAPTISMAL REGENERATIONIST at its finest .... no amount of verbal contortion will can justify such statements ... when you have zero bible to support it.




Baptism, loving you neighbor, living a holy life, etc. are all optional because we have free will, Sabellius .... but if we have placed our faith in Jesus and want to see Him one day ... all of His Words are necessary and important. Please refrain from the the playbook tactic of somehow marginalizing someone's by mentioning trinitarians in the same breath. Most of the Protestant faith stands with me on this Sabellius, sorry.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program ....

I do not accept ONE word of this Baptist stuff NONE-NADA-ZERO-ZILCH!!!!! Well I am a real Protestant I am certainly protesting this Calvinistic stuff.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by philjones

Well, I see that no one has changed their mind in these 971 posts and no one has presented anything I had not already heard before.

Maybe it is time to look at a different (I think more perfect) OT type for salvation and deliverance, the passover that brought deliverance from captivity to the Israelites.

Would the first born of a household have been spared if they had not obeyed ALL of Moses instruction? Would a family have escaped Egypt if they had used an unqualified lamb? Would the first born have been spared if the father had put blood only on the door posts but not the lintel or the Lintel and one door post?

I believe the application of the blood in the passover is a more accurate type of salvation than the tabernacle plan. I believe that the blood is applied in all three acts of faith on the part of the believer: repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost! If you miss any of them you fail in all of them and the assigned judgment will accompany the lack of proper application of the instruction of God's word!

Further, failure to consume the lamb AND the bitter herbs and packing of your bags in anticipation of a God ordained and empowered journey will also result in loss of access to the fullness of God's promise!

What scriptural supports can you share with us to support that the blood is applied in all three steps?

I love typologies also ...but I think we often try to fit Christ and the salvation he provided to fit our theologies .... Why do we insist to think that Christ and the salvation provided points to typologies? All of these typologies point to him. Yet none are better than this new covenant!!!!!

Undoubtedly the Passover is a type but so is the tabernacle plan ... although it is misconstrued by many.... Phil, why do you think the writer of Hebrews uses tabernacle typology to describe what our Hight Priest has done for us?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My friend Sab and I have a major disagreement here rather than justification a measure of sanctification has taken place in that he separated himself to seek God and God sent him a preacher with sayings words that complete the sanctification and declare him justified by giving the the HG and remitting his sins in baptism. I think you have the cart before the horse though we are own the same train. Now Sab you are smarter than I and certainly more wordy but sorry you are wrong on this but we are yet friends before you scald me think it through. The religious world says justified THEN sanctified but actually everything is SET APART unto God and from this world that is repentance BEFORE justification takes place!

I love it when PAJCers disagree on doctrine.