Islam: A Religion of Lies...

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...t.php#017.4192

Book 017, Number 4192:
'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.

Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

Yes. The Hadith says:

Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

BUT: It is not in the Quran.

[Esaias]

http://islamqa.info/en/31807

Islam Question and Answer
General Supervisor: Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid

Fri 17 Rb2 1436 - 6 February 2015

31807: Actions that put a person beyond the pale of Islam

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have said, when discussing apostasy, that a Muslim may apostatize from his religion by doing many acts that nullify Islam, which makes it permissible to shed his blood and seize his wealth, and which will put him beyond the pale of Islam.

...
4 – Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings – is a kaafir.
...

The fourth category includes those who believe that the systems and laws devised by men are better than the sharee’ah of Islam, or equal to it; or that it is permissible to refer to them for judgements and rulings, even if he believes that referring to sharee’ah is better; or that the Islamic system is not fit to be applied in the twentieth century; or that it was the cause of the Muslims’ backwardness; or that it should be limited to a person’s relationship with his Lord and not have anything to do with the other affairs of life.
The fourth category also includes those who think that carrying out the ruling of Allaah by cutting off the hand of the thief or stoning the married adulterer is not appropriate in the modern age.
That also includes: everyone who believes that it is permissible to rule according to something other than the laws of Allaah with regard to interactions, hudood punishments or other matters, even if he does not believe that that is better than the ruling of sharee’ah, because by doing so he is regarding as permissible something that Allaah has forbidden according to consensus, and everyone who regards as permissible something that Allaah has forbidden and is well known to be forbidden in Islam, such that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing that it is forbidden, such as adultery, alcohol and riba, and ruling by something other than the sharee’ah of Allaah, is a kaafir according to the consensus of the Muslims.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Yes. The Hadith says:

Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

BUT: It is not in the Quran.

Is not the hadith the Islamic equivalent of the New Testament (scriptures)? That is to say, they provide correct interpretation of the Word sent by God through his Prophet?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

http://islamqa.info/en/31807

Islam Question and Answer
General Supervisor: Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid

Fri 17 Rb2 1436 - 6 February 2015

31807: Actions that put a person beyond the pale of Islam

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have said, when discussing apostasy, that a Muslim may apostatize from his religion by doing many acts that nullify Islam, which makes it permissible to shed his blood and seize his wealth, and which will put him beyond the pale of Islam.

...
4 – Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings – is a kaafir.
...

The fourth category includes those who believe that the systems and laws devised by men are better than the sharee’ah of Islam, or equal to it; or that it is permissible to refer to them for judgements and rulings, even if he believes that referring to sharee’ah is better; or that the Islamic system is not fit to be applied in the twentieth century; or that it was the cause of the Muslims’ backwardness; or that it should be limited to a person’s relationship with his Lord and not have anything to do with the other affairs of life.
The fourth category also includes those who think that carrying out the ruling of Allaah by cutting off the hand of the thief or stoning the married adulterer is not appropriate in the modern age.
That also includes: everyone who believes that it is permissible to rule according to something other than the laws of Allaah with regard to interactions, hudood punishments or other matters, even if he does not believe that that is better than the ruling of sharee’ah, because by doing so he is regarding as permissible something that Allaah has forbidden according to consensus, and everyone who regards as permissible something that Allaah has forbidden and is well known to be forbidden in Islam, such that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing that it is forbidden, such as adultery, alcohol and riba, and ruling by something other than the sharee’ah of Allaah, is a kaafir according to the consensus of the Muslims.

Missing: The category who defer directly to the Quran to answer a question. Is that up there somewhere?

I know this guy. He's been in the news a few times. Website banned in Saudi Arabia. He sort of issues his own fatwas. You probably should find less of a nutjob as a source of Islamic thought.

His summary of the tsunami:

"The problem is that the [Christian] holidays are accompanied by forbidden things, by immorality, abomination, adultery, alcohol, drunken dancing, and … and revelry. A belly dancer costs 2500 pounds per minute and a singer costs 50,000 pounds per hour, and they hop from one hotel to another from night to dawn. Then he spends the entire night defying Allah. "Haven't they learned the lesson from what Allah wreaked upon the coast of Asia, during the celebration of these forbidden?"

LOL........one of his better ones, on one of the reasons why women should not be allowed to drive cars:

"When women drive it leads to overcrowding in the streets, or it deprives some young men of the opportunity to drive cars when they are more deserving of that."

Yeah, I always check in with him because he is such a learned and logical scholar of Islam. Dunno his car thing might be spot on. I have to reconsider that one. LOL

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Is not the hadith the Islamic equivalent of the New Testament (scriptures)? That is to say, they provide correct interpretation of the Word sent by God through his Prophet?

The only reference to "Allah's book" in the Hadith related to stoning is a story where two Jews were brought before the Prophet in a case of adultery. He asked them what their book and their law said is the punishment for this crime. When it was brought to him and read to him, he ordered them stoned.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Is not the hadith the Islamic equivalent of the New Testament (scriptures)? That is to say, they provide correct interpretation of the Word sent by God through his Prophet?

The most common approach to a case would be to apply the Quran (if there) followed by Hadith (if there) followed by consensus of scholars (if there).

I was only pointing out that the Quran clearly outlines a penalty for adultery. The penalty outlined in the Quran is not death.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is a bit of evidence here and there that God really does not apply the title of "excellent" and "good example" based on sexual activity. You and your peers focus on it a lot more than God did when he sent the law down. Your obsession with it is a source of mild concern to me but each to their own.

You have the pedophile prophet and I'm the one with an obsession?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is actually a LOT of evidence, previously discussed with the now happily absent pliny (his posts were genius compared to yours sadly) that God (except for specifically identified laws) is silent on the issue.

From an earlier post an example of this.

At one time in history:

Genesis 20:11–12

And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

YET God said:

I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.[a]
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Later in History:

Deuteronomy 27:22

‘Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ [Also see Leviticus 18:6–9.]

Bless or Curse? Seems to me that worshipping and believing in God might trump your views on what God might or might not give a nod to in terms of marriage and though with you it is "all about the sex" with others it might be a focus on God, submission to God, and worship of God and not about sex at all. Seems the common thread in the posted Hadith is about believing in God, not about who and how marriage is practiced.

As exampled above of course.

Walks, your posted scriptures give a progression of history of Israel, starting from their henotheist patriarch who is beckoned by God to leaves his pagan roots of Ur of the Chaldees to follow God. You then post (a later history) of the Law of Moses, where God takes the people who were Abraham's descendants and gives them the LAW. You do she a progression there in the Hebrew Bible?

Yet, still cannot see how he progression of the pagan Abraham justifies your Mohammed consummating his marriage with Aisha at the age of nine?

The child brides in your religion are brought about because the leader of your religion had a child bride.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Is not the hadith the Islamic equivalent of the New Testament (scriptures)? That is to say, they provide correct interpretation of the Word sent by God through his Prophet?

No, the Hadith were compiled after the Mohammed's death.

It is supposed to be the sayings of Mohammed, and eyewitness accounts of of those who were close to him.

It has some strange content.

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 1296:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet used to lean on my lap and recite Qur'an while I was in menses.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The most common approach to a case would be to apply the Quran (if there) followed by Hadith (if there) followed by consensus of scholars (if there).

I was only pointing out that the Quran clearly outlines a penalty for adultery. The penalty outlined in the Quran is not death.

I did not know the last source was not respectable. Honestly it seems like hadith and sharia are like talmud and halakha, or Tradition and Canon among catholic/orthodox. It seems difficult to get an authoritative opinion. I did not know there were lots of Muslims who follow Koran only (karaite muslims? lol).

According wikipedia, the penalty for a conviction of adultery in Saudi Arabia is death by stoning. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capit...rabia#Adultery

The hadith I quoted did not mention any Jews. From I can tell the sharia penalty for adultery is death. So I'm not understanding the insistence on your part that it is not.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I did not know the last source was not respectable. Honestly it seems like hadith and sharia are like talmud and halakha, or Tradition and Canon among catholic/orthodox. It seems difficult to get an authoritative opinion. I did not know there were lots of Muslims who follow Koran only (karaite muslims? lol).

According wikipedia, the penalty for a conviction of adultery in Saudi Arabia is death by stoning. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capit...rabia#Adultery

The hadith I quoted did not mention any Jews. From I can tell the sharia penalty for adultery is death. So I'm not understanding the insistence on your part that it is not.

That's what I was waiting to see...how Walks can explain this. Apparently, Saudi Arabia (the largest Muslim country supporting Sharia Law), where he claims he lives, doesn't agree.