Islam: A Religion of Lies...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No, it doesn't "clears"

Here is Walks now claiming that he came to the forum because Brand A bashes Brand X? Are you kidding me? So, Joe the Muslim comes to an Apostolic Forum in hopes to build a bridge based on similarities, but doesn't find us wanting to hold hands and sing Kumbaya? This upsets Joe the Muslim, so he sets up camp and starts a bashing campaign against the forum members. Forum members point out to Joe, that what he wants the members to stop bashing is just so bashable because it is barbaric. Not to mention its leader like to marry small children, which Joe doesn't mind.




Building a bridge by highlighting similarities?

How long have you been a Muslim?

Are you really a Muslim?

I wonder if Walks is also racist? Can't help getting that impression from a previous post:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Responded with the same answer pages back. Advised to research those practices when i did. Found some "white people" analysis this time since y'all are so scared of factual information y'all won't open links. You wont even really read the information from the links. Only an idiot would conclude no cover up from a criminal case summary affirming a conviction for cover up would be a good example of that. Do you have something else? Honor killings are an issue in India as well. India is not a Muslim country. Pointed that out months ago.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Yes you are the third one to point out that this parable is currently interpreted as guidance for marriage. Does not say marriage, does not reference marriage, does not direct "thus says you should do about marriage" but you have explained that this is REALLY what this parable means.

You left out why this interpretation was not applied by the christian church until the 19th century and was never applied by the jews.

So, again, explain, if this is what it means, and it was clear as to what it means, why so many thousands of years for this enlightenment to arrive?

Are you implying that ALL of christianity was made up until the 19th century? Or just the parts that the feminists had stomach trouble with?

Parable? So, in Ezekiel 16:4 when babies were in the ancient middle east, they didn't really cut the umbilical cord, wash the child, salt the child prior to her first swaddling? Also unwanted children were never left out for exposure Ezekiel 16:6?

If you were a honest individual you would say, of course the ancient eastern people did those things mentioned. Therefore you would agree the rest of the story (while symbolic) deals with issues those living at the time of its writings would understand. God was entering into a marriage contract "covenant" with the people, His bride.

Ezekiel 16:8

Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, THY TIME WAS THE TIME OF LOVE; and I SPREAD MY SKIRT over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into A COVENANT with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou BECAMEST MINE.

From verses 9-13 Ezekiel describes a bride adorned for her husband, and in verse 14 Ezekiel describes how the Gentiles heard about her beauty which God had placed upon her.

Am I implying that ALL Christianity was made up? No, because you would have to prove that across the board 53 year old men were taking nine year old wives and impregnating them throughout all Christianity from the first century to the nineteenth century. Unlike Islam which had to compile Hadith to build an actual religion, the scripture is enough to understand what God is trying to convey to us. But isn't that what the Quran says also?

Interesting how Mohammed had to pass away in order for the multitude of Hadith to pop up. Would Mohammed have approved of the many Hadith which came after his death? Not if he was the messenger of the Quran which held these verses, Surat Az-Zumar 39:23, Surat Al-Jāthiyah 45:6-11? So, while you want to point out innovations in Christendom, try to point out the innovations of your own religion. Innovations which started since the death of its original fabricator.

So, back to the discussion of your religious fabricator...

Walks, Surat Al-'Aĥzāb 33:21 says that Mohammed is your excellent example one which should be emulated. Aisha says in Sahih Bukhari 7. 62. 65 that Mohammed consummated the marriage while she was nine years old. Aisha also says in Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234 that she became ill, her hair fell out (probably traumatized), then when it started to grow again, Aisha's mother grabbed her (Aisha explains how she was terrified) frightened that the mother had to rub water in her face. Medinan women then take the young frightened nine year old girl to prepare her for 53 year old man, telling the child how fortunate she will be with the 53 year old man. Mohammed is said to have "unexpectedly" show up, Aisha's mother then takes Aisha hands her over to the 53 year old man so he can consummate his wife in marriage.

In Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13 the writers attempt to explain why Aisha is playing with dolls since they are forbidden to be used by older girls. What is explained to the readers concerning Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 is that nine year old Aisha was pre pubescent nine year old, and therefore still allowed to play with dolls. Clearly in the chapter of Ezekiel I offered you, that isn't the case. Israel is symbolically shown as a bride, who is fully formed and ready to enter covenant. Yet, in Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Aisha is playing with her little friends, with dolls. The Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, clearly explains that Mohammed was with a nine year old who wasn't yet in puberty.

Therefore this is why Walks in "whatever" condones 53 year old men with young pre pubescent girls?

Do you Walks?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Refer to first post as per earlier and work from there. The date of that post, and i remember it, is the same date i joined this board and it was to answer to bruce Klein. I actually do not know which denomination he is but he pulled a lot of Quran out of context to do what. Teach hate.

If you are not satisfied that starting on join date 2009 what i have said here is not reflected by what you read there come back with your questions.

These questions are asked and answered on earlier threads, before i learned that bridge building with christians (actually talking to you) is a mistake.

I and my family are Muslim.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You are seriously asking about the size of a Masjid in Saudi Arabia? Lol which one? There is a Masjid every few blocks.

He claims he is a Muslim, and he lives in Saudi Arabia?

He also says he has a daughter in college as to indicate that he is older than 25?

He doesn't like white people, and he believes nine year old girls can be married to 53 year old men?

How long is this thread going to go on?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

He claims he is a Muslim, and he lives in Saudi Arabia?

He also says he has a daughter in college as to indicate that he is older than 25?

He doesn't like white people, and he believes nine year old girls can be married to 53 year old men?

How long is this thread going to go on?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Am I implying that ALL Christianity was made up? No, because you would have to prove that across the board 53 year old men were taking nine year old wives and impregnating them throughout all Christianity from the first century to the nineteenth century.

Do you Walks?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

There is not much data from the 8th century when Europe was under the rule of the church. However, what survives includes tidbits like the following:

(Erasmus) "it isn�t rare to see, esp among the French, a girl hardly ten years old married, and a mother at 11"

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is not much data from the 8th century when Europe was under the rule of the church. However, what survives includes tidbits like the following:

(Erasmus) "it isn�t rare to see, esp among the French, a girl hardly ten years old married, and a mother at 11"

You deleted the portions of my post you refuse to address?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Jews in the Medieval times required a minimum age for marriage 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the betrothal can take place before that. How could they marry sooner? If a Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah were at the ages of 13 and 12, how could the Jews marry and consummate their marriages at six or nine?

Again, the Fabricator of Islam continued a practice which may of been part of his own pagan culture. Not of the Christians or the Jews.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Parable? So, in Ezekiel 16:4 when babies were in the ancient middle east, they didn't really cut the umbilical cord, wash the child, salt the child prior to her first swaddling? Also unwanted children were never left out for exposure Ezekiel 16:6?

If you were a honest individual you would say, of course the ancient eastern people did those things mentioned. Therefore you would agree the rest of the story (while symbolic) deals with issues those living at the time of its writings would understand. God was entering into a marriage contract "covenant" with the people, His bride.

Ezekiel 16:8

Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, THY TIME WAS THE TIME OF LOVE; and I SPREAD MY SKIRT over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into A COVENANT with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou BECAMEST MINE.

From verses 9-13 Ezekiel describes a bride adorned for her husband, and in verse 14 Ezekiel describes how the Gentiles heard about her beauty which God had placed upon her.

Am I implying that ALL Christianity was made up? No, because you would have to prove that across the board 53 year old men were taking nine year old wives and impregnating them throughout all Christianity from the first century to the nineteenth century. Unlike Islam which had to compile Hadith to build an actual religion, the scripture is enough to understand what God is trying to convey to us. But isn't that what the Quran says also?

Interesting how Mohammed had to pass away in order for the multitude of Hadith to pop up. Would Mohammed have approved of the many Hadith which came after his death? Not if he was the messenger of the Quran which held these verses, Surat Az-Zumar 39:23, Surat Al-Jāthiyah 45:6-11? So, while you want to point out innovations in Christendom, try to point out the innovations of your own religion. Innovations which started since the death of its original fabricator.

So, back to the discussion of your religious fabricator...

Walks, Surat Al-'Aĥzāb 33:21 says that Mohammed is your excellent example one which should be emulated. Aisha says in Sahih Bukhari 7. 62. 65 that Mohammed consummated the marriage while she was nine years old. Aisha also says in Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234 that she became ill, her hair fell out (probably traumatized), then when it started to grow again, Aisha's mother grabbed her (Aisha explains how she was terrified) frightened that the mother had to rub water in her face. Medinan women then take the young frightened nine year old girl to prepare her for 53 year old man, telling the child how fortunate she will be with the 53 year old man. Mohammed is said to have "unexpectedly" show up, Aisha's mother then takes Aisha hands her over to the 53 year old man so he can consummate his wife in marriage.

In Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13 the writers attempt to explain why Aisha is playing with dolls since they are forbidden to be used by older girls. What is explained to the readers concerning Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 is that nine year old Aisha was pre pubescent nine year old, and therefore still allowed to play with dolls. Clearly in the chapter of Ezekiel I offered you, that isn't the case. Israel is symbolically shown as a bride, who is fully formed and ready to enter covenant. Yet, in Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Aisha is playing with her little friends, with dolls. The Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, clearly explains that Mohammed was with a nine year old who wasn't yet in puberty.

Therefore this is why Walks in "whatever" condones 53 year old men with young pre pubescent girls?

Do you Walks?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

No. What was acceptable in the 8th century is no longer applicable to today.

Were you assuming that all Muslims believe the same things? As you say christianity has "evolved", so has Islam.

You should peek into Islamic law before you assume that "child marriage is mainstream".

http://www.academia.edu/6760706/Marr...ge_Islamic_Law

Unfortunately no phonics for you. You will have to struggle through it without them. Wait, you don't open links. Facts terrify you.

Let's summarize.

The range of marriageable ages for males extends from 15 years according to
the Hanbali, the Shafi’i and the Jafari schools to 17 or 18 years in Hanafi and Maliki teaching.

For female spouses, the range of marriageable ages extends from a high of 17 years, as represented by the Hanafi school, to 15 years according to both Shafi’i and Hanbali opinion, and down to as little as nine years according to Jafari teaching.

My wife is from Indonesia (most populous Muslim country). In her particular country the minimum marriage age is 16.


Erasmus was the old devil who sort of "rushed his new testament translations into print" resulting in a translation error or two. Carried into the german translations etc etc LOL. Did not find any record that this scholar who could translate Greek and Latin scriptures really identified and spoke up about the REAL meaning of the parable about God and Israel.

He missed it too.

Previously discussed:

Jewish law at the time of Jesus
Canon law
Laws in Colonial America

Did I miss some critical period of time? LOL I guess I did

(Erasmus) "it isn�t rare to see, esp among the French, a girl hardly ten years old married, and a mother at 11"

I know one thing. I have asked you all for that elusive time in history when the christian church wrote down or documented this interpretation of that parable more times than you have asked me what I am "doing here". So far zilch. So marriage age per the church magically appeared in the last 200 years. (actually the last hundred). Why so long if Ezekiel specified it?

If you were an honest individual you would note that this is a symbolic story and not meant to be, intended to be, or about anything but Israel's idolatry at the time of Ezekiel. But after the feminists got the marriage ages raised in the 19th century it IS a cool source (the ONLY one at that) for you to go back and 'discover' "that's how it was meant to be anyway".

Unless you have something else? Anything?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Jews in the Medieval times required a minimum age for marriage 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the betrothal can take place before that. How could they marry sooner? If a Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah were at the ages of 13 and 12, how could the Jews marry and consummate their marriages at six or nine?

Again, the Fabricator of Islam continued a practice which may of been part of his own pagan culture. Not of the Christians or the Jews.

REALLY? OH NO. REALLY? (laughing) OH LEARNED ONE. TEACH US ALL. You have exposed me again!

Seriously: I discussed this with Pliny. We determined together that Jewish law allows betrothal from birth, marriage at the age of THREE.

Talmud Kiddushin 41a.
Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1.
Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1.

Go to it. There is their law. MANNNN you people can fabricate some lies!

http://www.come-and-hear.com/niddah/niddah_44.html

MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED23 BY INTERCOURSE; IF THE YABAM24 HAD INTERCOURSE WITH HER, HE ACQUIRES HER THEREBY;25 THE GUILT26 OF ADULTERY27 MAY BE INCURRED THROUGH HER,28 AND SHE29 CAUSES UNCLEANNESS TO THE MAN WHO HAD INTERCOURSE WITH HER SO THAT HE IN TURN CONVEYS UNCLEANNESS TO THAT UPON WHICH HE LIES,30 AS TO A GARMENT WHICH HAS LAIN UPON [A ZAB].31 IF SHE WAS MARRIED TO A PRIEST, SHE MAY EAT TERUMAH. IF ANY OF THE INELIGIBLE PERSONS32 COHABITED WITH HER HE DISQUALIFIES HER FROM THE PRIESTHOOD.33 IF ANY OF THE FORBIDDEN DEGREES ENUMERATED IN THE TORAH COHABITED WITH HER HE IS TO BE EXECUTED ON HER ACCOUNT, BUT SHE34 IS EXEMPT [FROM THE PENALTY]. IF ONE WAS YOUNGER THAN THIS AGE INTERCOURSE WITH HER IS LIKE PUTTING A FINGER IN THE EYE.

GEMARA. Our Rabbis taught: A girl of the age of three years may be betrothed by intercourse; so R. Meir. But the Sages say: Only one who is three years and one day old. What is the practical difference between them? — The school of R Jannai replied: The practical difference between them is the day preceding the first day of the fourth year.35 R. Johanan, however, replied: The practical difference between them is the rule that thirty days of a year are counted as the full year.36

An objection was raised: A girl of the age of three years and even one of the age of two years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse; so R. Meir. But the Sages say: Only one who is three years and one day old.

Dude I have to tell you. If you lie like this, make sure it is not something easy to cut, paste, and check. Game, set, match on this jewish thing

R. Yannai (or R.Jannai; Hebrew: רבי ינאי‎, read as Rabbi Yannai) was a Jewish sage, living during the first half of the 3rd century, and of the first generation of the Amora sages of the Land of Israel. He was a disciple of R. Judah haNasi - the sealer of the Mishnah. R. Yannai founded a Beth midrash in 'Akbara that was located, at the time, nearby Safed in the Upper Galilee, where he taught the Torah, and at the same time served as a dayan, religious judge, on the Beth din, rabbinacal court in Sepphoris community. Among his disciplinces one can note: Abba Arika - Author of "Sefer" and "Sifri"; Yochanan bar Nafcha - One of the authors of the Jerusalem Talmud, Shimon ben Lakish, and more. R. Yannai is one of the descendants of Eli Ha-Kohen.

His name is mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud 176 times, and in the Jerusalem Talmud 254 times.

Johanan bar Nappaha (Hebrew: יוחנן בר נפחא‎ Yoḥanan bar Nafḥa); (also known as Johanan bar Nafcha, "Johanan son [of the] blacksmith") (lived 180 - 279 CE)[1] was a rabbi in the early era of the Talmud. He was born in Sepphoris in the Land of Israel. His father, a blacksmith, died prior to his birth, and his mother died soon after; he was raised by his grandfather in Sepphoris.

The most widely studied of these rabbinic teachings are known collectively as the Talmud, which has two parts: Mishnah and Gemara.

The Mishnah is the earlier work, compiled from the teachings of sages living at the end of the Second Temple period and in the century following the destruction of the Temple.

Sages in both Babylonia (modern-day Iraq) and the Land of Israel continued to study traditional teachings, including the Mishnah, describing the teachings as having been passed down from Moses at Sinai (either literally or figuratively). The oral discussions were preserved, either by memorization or notation, and later edited together in a manner that places generations of sages in conversation with one another. These teachers were interested in bringing greater harmonization between biblical and rabbinic traditions, largely by providing proof-texts for known laws and explaining differences between the biblical and rabbinic versions of laws. This is the origin of the Gemara.

MANNNNN what a dumb thing to do, openly lie like that? They actually give your lying little fingers a license to PREACH? You DO get that Mishnah thing right? That's the time of Jesus. He missed a real good chance to speak up about those teachings. I wonder why he did not?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

He claims he is a Muslim, and he lives in Saudi Arabia?

He also says he has a daughter in college as to indicate that he is older than 25?

He doesn't like white people, and he believes nine year old girls can be married to 53 year old men?

How long is this thread going to go on?

So now I don't live in Saudi either? (laughing)

I live near Jubail.

Look it up.