The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Love this one ... EP ... please elaborate on the difference between remission and forgiveness ... please use scriputural support ... and you get to use one analogy.

In the OT sins were forgiven yes or no??????????????????

Were they taken away???????????? Paul says no in Heb. 10.

The was NOT remission of sins available in the OT!!!!!!!!!

Only Calvary made remission of sins available. Heb. 9:22, Rom 3:24-25

The Incarnation and Death-Burial-Resurrection made remission of sins available. Jn. 1:29, Rom. 4:25

Remission of sins in the NT was preached in Jesus Name beginning at Jerusalem the command Luke 24:47 the fulfillment Acts 2:38!

Remission clears the record of the sins forgiven.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

In the OT sins were forgiven yes or no??????????????????

Were they taken away???????????? Paul says no in Heb. 10.

The was NOT remission of sins available in the OT!!!!!!!!!

Only Calvary made remission of sins available. Heb. 9:22, Rom 3:24-25

The Incarnation and Death-Burial-Resurrection made remission of sins available. Jn. 1:29, Rom. 4:25

Remission of sins in the NT was preached in Jesus Name beginning at Jerusalem the command Luke 24:47 the fulfillment Acts 2:38!

Remission clears the record of the sins forgiven.

Not sound theology Elder ... sorry. It's a leap in verbal gymnastics to try to make these two synonyms, forgiveness and remission, to be distinct.

Most Oneness scholars are not in agreement with on you on this issue, including Daniel Seagraves, CLC President who wrote in a 1988 symposium:

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

He also said "Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?"

If I were debating on your side ... I would get off this strand of logic ... it's faulty ... and unscriptural ... to the other side it seems like string theology used to defend your view .... you're better off beating the OBEDIENCE drum than to not rightly dividing the Word.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Not sound theology Elder ... sorry. It's a leap in verbal gymnastics to try to make these two synonyms, forgiveness and remission, to be distinct.

Most Oneness scholars are not in agreement with on you on this issue, including Daniel Seagraves, CLC President who wrote in a 1988 symposium:

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

He also said "Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?"

If I were debating on your side ... I would get off this strand of logic ... it's faulty ... and unscriptural ... to the other side it seems like string theology used to defend your view .... you're better off beating the OBEDIENCE drum than to not rightly dividing the Word.

Again I disagree with Elder Seagraves but YOU nor has anyone answered the simple question if forgiveness and remission are the same then why
were sins forgiven but NOT taken away or remitted in the OT????????
So they are NOT the same though they come from the same word because the same act shedding of blood procurs BOTH and make BOTH available by faith and obedience.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Again I disagree with Elder Seagraves but YOU nor has anyone answered the simple question if forgiveness and remission are the same then why
were sins forgiven but NOT taken away or remitted in the OT????????
So they are NOT the same though they come from the same word because the same act shedding of blood procurs BOTH and make BOTH available by faith and obedience.

Let go ... and let God.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Let go ... and let God.

As I thought couldn't answer but join the crowd NO one I have ever asked was able to answer it either don't feel bad.

Such a simple question to stop all the complex wrangling and dodging over the remission of sins.

Hebrews 10 clinches so tight it cannot be refuted. NO sins were taken away in the OT but yet men were forgiven so remission and forgiveness are not the same. But I have recieved BOTH forgiveness and remission of sins. The least born in the Kingdom is greater than John and none greater was born than John.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

True.

However in the old Testament sins were forgiven but not TAKEN AWAY in the NT sins are not only forgiven but taken away or remitted.

Bro. Epley .....

I read in the OT over and over and over again where God Almighty states if you repent and turn from sin He forgives and restores and renews.

I was reading some in Isaiah and Jeremiah and the Psalms a couple weeks ago during my lunch breaks at work and was totally overcome and amazed with the fact that even in the OT before the atoning work that took place at Calvary on the part of Jesus Christ at how that God was SO willing and quick to forgive!!!!

I'd never noticed it before like I did during those lunch break readings. It was almost revelatory to me.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Bro. Epley .....

I read in the OT over and over and over again where God Almighty states if you repent and turn from sin He forgives and restores and renews.

I was reading some in Isaiah and Jeremiah and the Psalms a couple weeks ago during my lunch breaks at work and was totally overcome and amazed with the fact that even in the OT before the atoning work that took place at Calvary on the part of Jesus Christ at how that God was SO willing and quick to forgive!!!!

I'd never noticed it before like I did during those lunch break readings. It was almost revelatory to me.

Forgiveness was abundant in the OT and available but NO remission the example that mirrors what would be fulfilled in the NT was Lev. 16 the atonement so in TYPE sins were placed on the head of the live goat and sent away BUT the act had to be repeated again each year. Sins were NEVER taken away that is a NT benefit.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Forgiveness was abundant in the OT and available but NO remission the example that mirrors what would be fulfilled in the NT was Lev. 16 the atonement so in TYPE sins were placed on the head of the live goat and sent away BUT the act had to be repeated again each year. Sins were NEVER taken away that is a NT benefit.

If God forgives sin then what does it matter ........ this "taking away" bit?

The fact is He FORGIVES!!!!!

His forgiveness is total and complete to the point that He promised restoration and even renewal even in the Old Testament!

His response to true repentance is direct and immediate. He forgives!! And I don't believe He held that over their heads then ..... neither does he now. That should make you want to shout and run Bro. E. Hehe.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Barb

I am Apostolic to the very core and have heard the portion bolded above all of my life, however, I am respectfully asking, where is the scriptural proof that the blood is applied at all and not appropriated, and that this happens ONLY at baptism?!

And if sin is not forgiven until baptism, what is repentance for?!

In the OT repentance was a turning away from sin and and turning to God and doing things his way. Isa 59:20 Eze 14:6 Eze 18:32
In the NT repentance is to change one's mind with an abhorence for the way one was living before.

I think the scriptural proof for remission/forgiveness of sin in water baptism requiring the blood of Jesus to be sprinkled upon our souls is found in these scriptures:

Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..

Acts 22:16 ..arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

1Cor 6:11 but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:18-22 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rev 1:5 Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

1 John 1:7,9,....the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The washing away of our sins in his blood takes place at water baptism. Peter said baptism in Jesus' name is for remission of sins. Remission and forgiveness are the same. I am still curious to know how we "appropriate the blood."

1 : to take exclusive possession of : ANNEX <no one should appropriate a common benefit>
2 : to set apart for or assign to a particular purpose or use <appropriate money for the research program>
3 : to take or make use of without authority or right

I've never heard this doctrine until this year and the word "appropriate" sounds like something we do, a work we do as opposed to something God does when He forgives our sins.

For what it's worth, Barb, I haven't put it all together completely in my mind, but it seems clear if our sins are remitted in water baptism then the blood of Christ must be sprinkled on us there by God. I'm not sure I can answer your last question about why we repent if we are not forgiven upon repentance, except to say we are commanded to repent. Jesus commands us to forgive when someone repents for sinning against us, I would think God would do the same.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Felicity

If God forgives sin then what does it matter ........ this "taking away" bit?

The fact is He FORGIVES!!!!!

His forgiveness is total and complete to the point that He promised restoration and even renewal even in the Old Testament!

His response to true repentance is direct and immediate. He forgives!! And I don't believe He held that over their heads then ..... neither does he now. That should make you want to shout and run Bro. E. Hehe.

Didn't those in the Old Testament have to give a sin offering? Without the sheeding of blood there is no remisson of sin. So it's back to the same ole question, when is the blood applied? At repentance or in baptism?