What is a Happening Church to you? What is a Dead church?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

You're entitled to an opinion ... but to imply I am lying is troublesome.

I will chalk it up to frustration or an inability to construct meaning from my posts.

No one is undermining Oneness Apostolic doctrine ... although I can see this as being threatening to some who would have to re-adjust a century long feud w/ Trinitarians ...

Furthermore ... I don't think there are but only a handful PCIers on this forum that would quibble w/ anything I've posted in this thread.

If I stated that I am a dog lover, and then spent the remainder of the thread discussing how ugly and evil dogs are, what more can a person think but that I am not really being truthful with my initial post. You post that it is biblical, and then spend the remainder of the thread trying to undermine it. You are found to be fighting against what you stated that you believe.

The problem is, you are not just debating whether trinitarians are saved or not, you are undermining the fact that Jesus name baptism is biblically correct doctrine. Maybe you do not see that in your attempt to "enlighten" all of us full salvation folks that you are doing this. But you are.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The context of the chapter is clear ... it's about the Spirit ... also the Hebraic writer often repeated phrases for emphasis.

You are not part of the body of Christ if you are not born again of the water and the Spirit.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Amos

The most dynamic, entertaining, riveting oratory is empty if it doesn't tell people God's only plan of salvation.

Trinitarian churches don't ever preach that message.

their preaching is therefore as empty as it can get, no matter how entertaining it might be, or how much good information there is on anger management, coping skills, reationship advice, stress relief, or whatever hot topic the Osteens of the world are pontificating about.

Originally Posted by Darcie

We need that if we are going to survive the REAL WORLD

You got that right, Sis!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

If I stated that I am a dog lover, and then spent the remainder of the thread discussing how ugly and evil dogs are, what more can a person think but that I am not really being truthful with my initial post. You post that it is biblical, and then spend the remainder of the thread trying to undermine it. You are found to be fighting against what you stated that you believe.

The problem is, you are not just debating whether trinitarians are saved or not, you are undermining the fact that Jesus name baptism is biblically correct doctrine. Maybe you do not see that in your attempt to "enlighten" all of us full salvation folks that you are doing this. But you are.

I have only criticized the PAJC Water and Spirit view ... Matt, you know that better than I that everything stated here is in line w/ the Oneness Apostolic PCI view.

I have clarified starting w/ post 36 what I believe being a people of His name means ... the position that we are saved by grace through faith , and the meaning of baptism into His name as understood by PCI pentecostals and most of the Protestant world.

If you cannot refute what I've posted then don't ... I'm sure someone will pick up where you have left off.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You are not part of the body of Christ if you are not born again of the water and the Spirit.

Yep.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Oh ....let me help you out w/ this ... Praxeas and Amos ...

First, God's plan of Salvation is Jesus Christ ... HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION are the Gospel ... We are not saved based on our re-enactment of it.

Second, a dead church is JUST THAT ... DEAD. Many posters, including myself, defined the difference between a happening church and a dead church ... in the previous thread but some will read into it what the please.

A dead church does not lift up the THE LIFE ... but lift up their own works, man-made traditions, religious rituals and their kingdoms.

A dead church does not ALLOW the PNEUMA OF GOD ... to operate ... it is as dead as the dead bones in the valley the prophet was instructed to speak to.

A dead church mechanizes salvation, worship and preaching because they've got it down to a science....

A dead church is not grafted into the VINE ... and therefore do not demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit ... nor are they showing the world what makes them disciples ... LOVING ONE ANOTHER because the LOVE OF THE FATHER is in them.

A Spirit-filled church, Trinitarian or OP, has THE LIFE flowing through it's members... it has growth in many areas ... impact, maturity, vision, and yes ... even in number.

A HAPPENING CHURCH is God-centered and lost-centered. A happening church is the body of a PALPABLE GOD ... he is the Head. Their energy and life source is HIM.

This post is FANTASTIC... Great stuff! oloroid

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

A dead church is IDOLATROUS ... they glory in thinking they have cornered the market of truth ... and revel in their ability to define and explain an infinite God ... yet the truth is they do not have the TRUTH because they do not live it ... nor allow His truth to live through them in their relationship w/ God and others.

A happening church burns with passion and a fire for an daily encounter with a LIVING GOD ... they rest themselves in the bosom of the Master ... they feel his heartbeat .... saving that which is lost ....

FIRE FALL DOWN...FIRE FALL DOWN!!!! The Spirit of God has overcome you!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Quite sure ... when one includes all the components found in today's PAJC Water and Spirit Oneness doctrine ...

no no no....you are changing it now. It was water baptism not water and spirit. Water baptism in Jesus name is not new. Baptism into Christ, by water baptism is also not new

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

My reason for believing it to be water baptism has to do with the wording.

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?.....this is water baptism. It has to be since it is speaking of death and note...were baptized INTO Jesus Christ. I believe this INTO means into the body of Christ.

Gal 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Because of the wording, into Christ, this is water baptism.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.....same here..we are baptized into one body or into Christ by the Spirit. this is water baptism.

Rom 2:27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. ..... this verse agree with 1 Cor 12:13..the Spirit does the baptizing when we are buried in water in Jesus name.

What makes you think 1Cor12:13 is speaking of something other than water baptism? Do you think Paul is repeating himself with different phrasing? Does the word, and, link two separate thoughts?

Because Paul says specifically By ONE SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body....by one Spirit. That's why I think it's Spirit baptism, because Paul says it is.

Mar 1:8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Act 11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

The above shows that baptized with, filled with, poured out on, received fell on and gift of the Spirit are all synonymous terms

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Because Paul says specifically By ONE SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body....by one Spirit. That's why I think it's Spirit baptism, because Paul says it is.

Mar 1:8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Act 11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

The above shows that baptized with, filled with, poured out on, received fell on and gift of the Spirit are all synonymous terms

I have never been totally sure about this verse because I could see both interpretations but now I think that verse in 1 Cor12:13 is about both baptisms, not just Spirit baptism. The verse is about how all believers become part of the body of Christ. The word, into, plays the biggest part in my leaning that way. We are truly baptized by the Spirit when we call upon and take on the name of Jesus because the Spirit does the work, that is the circumcision of our heart, namely the remission of sins, by applying the blood of Christ. I think this verse is similar to the likeness of the baptisms that the children of Israel experienced in the wilderness. And the part about the cloud, which is the Spirit, and the sea, which is water baptism, correlates to this verse.


1Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; .....type of our water baptism.

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...a type of our Spirit baptism.